LeBron James

[ChicagoCat1990]

How many times are you gonna move the goalposts? First it was no other superstar had HOF help. Now it’s that they didn’t come together “naturally”. I mean forget the fact that Bird’s Celtics, Magic’s Lakers weren’t formed naturally. Most of those guys came there via trades.

Boo LeBron for having the temerity to take his destiny into his own hands instead of having an incompetent management put together spare parts for him.

The argument against LeBron going to Miami is hilarious. I guess the people that are against it need to stop cheering for Coach Cal because he left UMASS. Just disregard every great transfer that ever came to play at UK, they shouldn’t have left the original school the chose to play for.

I won’t pick LeBron over Jordan, but I also won’t pick Jordan over LeBron. We’ll never have the luxury of seeing them play against each other. But it’s silly for people to deny LeBron the recognition he deserves as the best player in the world right now and it’s silly for people to deny themselves from enjoying watching a truly once in a lifetime player.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

There's thousands of datapoints to use in comparing Lebron to the other greats... Not sure where he stands, probably doesn't matter until he retires.. but he definitely made a few extra cases for himself this past week. My goodness.

 

[RondoBaller21]

It all comes down to what DWade said. MJ was the perfect player who had a perfect career. Nobody passes perfection. Is there a chance someone could tie? Yes but a very small chance. Nobody passes the perfection that was Michael Jordan.

 

[AnarchoNeoLuddite]

Think about MJ too....should have and most likely wins 9 straight Titles if not for the retirement.

 

[GonzoCat90]

It all comes down to what DWade said. MJ was the perfect player who had a perfect career. Nobody passes perfection. Is there a chance someone could tie? Yes but a very small chance. Nobody passes the perfection that was Michael Jordan.

the perfect player shot 32% from three and lost in the first round of the playoffs three times?


Sold a lot of shoes though.

 

[GonzoCat90]

Think about MJ too....should have and most likely wins 9 straight Titles if not for the retirement.

Or his body breaks down in his mid-30s and he doesn't win the titles on the back end of his career.

It's crazy to me that LeBron takes grief for being a free agent and Jordan gets some mythical hypothetical boost for quitting the game of basketball.

 

[RondoBaller21]

the perfect player shot 32% from three and lost in the first round of the playoffs three times?


Sold a lot of shoes though.

Sorry but there’s not even one single argument for lebron and I know that makes people angry but it’s true. And yes Mj had the perfect career. There’s a reason Iverson calls him black Jesus.

 

[ChicagoCat1990]

Sorry but there’s not even one single argument for lebron and I know that makes people angry but it’s true. And yes Mj had the perfect career. There’s a reason Iverson calls him black Jesus.

I guess debate is over. Iverson called him black Jesus so that’s the end all to this debate.

 

[RondoBaller21]

I guess debate is over. Iverson called him black Jesus so that’s the end all to this debate.

No but ask almost any player that’s played in the NBA and they’ll tell you MJ. I’ll take the word of people who played with and against both over some random observer. Look it up and you’ll see players like Shaq, TMac, Iverson and KG who all say Jordan.

 

[MdWIldcat55]

To me, the only criteria by which Michael Jordan is clearly better than LeBron James is in titles won. If that is the only criteria, then Bill Russell wins the greatest of all time accolade.

I saw both play in person several times at the peak of their careers. LeBron is by far the more impressive physical player, and indeed is the greatest combination of size and power and athleticism ever. Jordan at one poit had the edge as a shooter and a clutch shooter, but that gap has narrowed dramatically.

If I could take either player at age 21 and build a franchise around that player, it would be LeBron ten out of ten times. And my answer is based upon everything I've seen both of them do through the heart of their careers. All the stuff that happened after they began their careers -- the teammates each had, the teams that drafted them, the relative strength of the opposition they played against, the other championship caliber teams in each era -- that's all out of their control.

Put another way, give me four average-to-better than average players (add a few bench players) and add Jordan. Give me the same four players and bench players and add LeBron. The LeBron team would be better.

 

[AnarchoNeoLuddite]

Or his body breaks down in his mid-30s and he doesn't win the titles on the back end of his career.

It's crazy to me that LeBron takes grief for being a free agent and Jordan gets some mythical hypothetical boost for quitting the game of basketball.

The break was good no doubt but your actually going to call him out over his murdered dad? thats weak.

 

[crawfords corner]

I'll take the better scorer and defender 10 out 10 times. That ain't Lebron.

 

[RondoBaller21]

Steve Kerr seems to think Kobe, not Lebron is the closest to Jordan that we’ve ever seen. I agree in that Kobe’s entire game resembled Mike. Same form on his fadeaway J, same height and position. Lebron is close to as good as MJ, but nobody resembled MJ more than Kobe.

 

[BleedBlue32]

I am a Lakers fan, so Kobe has always been my guy and I used to loathe LeBron. Although I still think he can be a drama queen and his diehard fans are the most absurd in sports, I have learned to appreciate him for what he is - one of the greatest to ever play the game.

With that said, I believe Jordan is the greatest to ever do it. However, I hold the mentality that Jordan was great in the 90's, Kobe was great in the 2000's, and LeBron is great in the 2010's, so I just respect and appreciate them all.

 

[GonzoCat90]

Sorry but there’s not even one single argument for lebron and I know that makes people angry but it’s true. And yes Mj had the perfect career. There’s a reason Iverson calls him black Jesus.

And most who play against LeBron will say he's the best. It's a pointless way to try and make an argument.

Michael Jordan didn't have the perfect career. Not even close. He isn't even the most accomplished player of all time. People just choose not to remember any of his failures.

 

[GonzoCat90]

The break was good no doubt but your actually going to call him out over his murdered dad? thats weak.

He was so upset he could only play minor league baseball.

He was exhausted and burned out and facing tons of gambling heat. His dad was killed months before he retired. It was far from the only factor.

 

[michaeluk26]

I am a Lakers fan, so Kobe has always been my guy and I used to loathe LeBron. Although I still think he can be a drama queen and his diehard fans are the most absurd in sports, I have learned to appreciate him for what he is - one of the greatest to ever play the game.

With that said, I believe Jordan is the greatest to ever do it. However, I hold the mentality that Jordan was great in the 90's, Kobe was great in the 2000's, and LeBron is great in the 2010's, so I just respect and appreciate them all.

No, the LeBron haters are the most absurd. I became a LeBron fan because all of the unwarranted hate he receives is crazy. It's insane to me. If I was starting a new team and had either LeBron or Jordan to build around, I take LeBron. He's a point forward who can get to the basket at will. I can also understand why people would choose Jordan.

As for the GOAT topic, I say screw that and just enjoy LeBron while you can. Dudes like him are very rare. If you love ball, which it's obvious we all do, I say watch him while you can, even if you loathe him.

 

[wildcatsboston1984]

Look at some of Allen's games in the playoffs that year. He may have been old, but at some points he was still himself. In fact, one game he even saved them was some huge three's late. Look, you can take Allen out of the equation, that is fine. The fact is, nobody can argue that Lebron has won titles with anything less than 2 other hall of famers on the roster. Other than Durant, no other superstar has had to have that type of talent to win. Did Jordan have it in Pippen and Rodman? Yes, but he proved in the early 90's that he didn't have to have that.

Ray Allen was still himself, if himself is being a spot up shooter.

No other superstar has had to have that type of talent to win? What do you call a team of Rajon Rondo, Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen, and Paul Pierce in their prime or damn near the prime? Those 4 only ever won a championship together. That group changed the league. Every team that has won the championship since then has had at least three future hall of famers, or at least guys that looked to be headed that way before injuries derailed their career (like Andrew Bynum)

2009 - Kobe, Pau, Bynum
2010 - Same as above + the addition of one of the best defenders in NBA history in Ron Artest
2011 - Dirk, Jason Kidd, Shawn Marion (basketball reference has his HOF probability at 75.6%)
2012 - LeBron, Bosh, Wade
2013 - LeBron, Bosh, Wade
2014 - Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, Kawhi
2015 - Curry, Thompson, maybe Draymond? Iggy listed at only 2.8% HOF probability
2016 - LeBron, Love, Kyrie - Love is going to be iffy if he keeps up his decline and keeps getting injured, but is listed with a HOF probability of 67.6%
2017 - Curry, Thompson, Durant, and maybe Draymond

 

[wildcatsboston1984]

Think about MJ too....should have and most likely wins 9 straight Titles if not for the retirement.

He was only retired for part of two years. Missed one whole season then came back for part of the second season. People seem to "conveniently" forget the Bulls didn't win the title the year he came back despite Jordan still being highly productive in the playoffs. Or that it took him four trips to the playoffs to just manage to get out of the first round, LeBron was in the finals by his second trip to the playoffs with one of the most garbage rosters you'll ever see playing in the NBA Finals.

 

[RondoBaller21]

No, the LeBron haters are the most absurd. I became a LeBron fan because all of the unwarranted hate he receives is crazy. It's insane to me. If I was starting a new team and had either LeBron or Jordan to build around, I take LeBron. He's a point forward who can get to the basket at will. I can also understand why people would choose Jordan.

As for the GOAT topic, I say screw that and just enjoy LeBron while you can. Dudes like him are very rare. If you love ball, which it's obvious we all do, I say watch him while you can, even if you loathe him.

I’m not hating on lebron, simply stating that he’s not better than Jordan.

 

[CATofninelives]

You can't be the GOAT playing in today's Eastern Conference. Sorry.

 

[Bigjoecatfan56]

Ray Allen was still himself, if himself is being a spot up shooter.

No other superstar has had to have that type of talent to win? What do you call a team of Rajon Rondo, Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen, and Paul Pierce in their prime or damn near the prime? Those 4 only ever won a championship together. That group changed the league. Every team that has won the championship since then has had at least three future hall of famers, or at least guys that looked to be headed that way before injuries derailed their career (like Andrew Bynum)

2009 - Kobe, Pau, Bynum
2010 - Same as above + the addition of one of the best defenders in NBA history in Ron Artest
2011 - Dirk, Jason Kidd, Shawn Marion (basketball reference has his HOF probability at 75.6%)
2012 - LeBron, Bosh, Wade
2013 - LeBron, Bosh, Wade
2014 - Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, Kawhi
2015 - Curry, Thompson, maybe Draymond? Iggy listed at only 2.8% HOF probability
2016 - LeBron, Love, Kyrie - Love is going to be iffy if he keeps up his decline and keeps getting injured, but is listed with a HOF probability of 67.6%
2017 - Curry, Thompson, Durant, and maybe Draymond

I see no way Shawn Marion makes the hall of fame. The same can be said for Bynum. In addition, Kidd was way over the hill in 2011; as I am pretty sure he was on the wrong side of 30. Kobe never left the lakers to join other superstars. Look, Lebron is 3-5 in the finals, he will never catch Jordan. No way.

 

[trav55]

Steve Kerr seems to think Kobe, not Lebron is the closest to Jordan that we’ve ever seen. I agree in that Kobe’s entire game resembled Mike. Same form on his fadeaway J, same height and position. Lebron is close to as good as MJ, but nobody resembled MJ more than Kobe.

In this entire thread, I think that’s one of the best points I’ve read. I think Lebron is amazing and gets criticized far too often but you are correct, as far as how they play the game and how their games mirrored each other, Kobe’s game looked eerily similar.

 

[morgousky]

Had to look and see who you guys were responding to. Wade on into the waters of ignore. They're perfect this time of year.

Can you see this?

 

[michaeluk26]

I’m not hating on lebron, simply stating that he’s not better than Jordan.

And I understand. Is he better than Jordan? Some people say no, others say yes. You can't go wrong either way. Neither answer is wrong really.
When I spoke of people hating on him for no reason, I wasn't referring to anyone here in this thread. I was speaking generally. And by hating, I was talking about people who purposely under rate him and give stupid reasons as reason for doing so. Like flopping or calling him a crybaby.

 

[morgousky]

And I understand. Is he better than Jordan? Some people say no, others say yes. You can't go wrong either way. Neither answer is wrong really.
When I spoke of people hating on him for no reason, I wasn't referring to anyone here in this thread. I was speaking generally. And by hating, I was talking about people who purposely under rate him and give stupid reasons as reason for doing so. Like flopping or calling him a crybaby.

I bet one on one everyone would be scared to bet 500 on it. Both sides.

 

[wildcatsboston1984]

I see no way Shawn Marion makes the hall of fame. The same can be said for Bynum. In addition, Kidd was way over the hill in 2011; as I am pretty sure he was on the wrong side of 30. Kobe never left the lakers to join other superstars. Look, Lebron is 3-5 in the finals, he will never catch Jordan. No way.

Of course Bynum isn't making the HOF now. He was headed that way though, second-team All-NBA in 2012 at 24 years old and then his career was basically over after that with injuries along with some boneheadedness, but largely injuries. People forget he was one of the centerpieces of that trade that saw Dwight Howard get traded to the Lakers, Iggy to the Nuggets, and Bynum to the 76ers. If he had kept producing the way he did his last year in LA, even if he never improved a single bit after that, guy would be a HOFer.

Shawn Marion may not make it, but the chances are pretty high that he will. Of the players with at least a 50% probability that are eligible for the HOF (113 players, not all HOF eligible yet though), only five haven't made it

• Tim Hardaway
• Chauncey Billups (though he just became so I don't know if the 2018 class of inductees has been announced yet)
• Jack Sikma
• Larry Foust
• Larry Costello

I would say Hardaway will for sure get in eventually, Chauncey probably will. Those last three likely might as well forget it given how long ago they retired even though their resumes are more deserving than others who have been voted in.

 

[michaeluk26]

I see no way Shawn Marion makes the hall of fame. The same can be said for Bynum. In addition, Kidd was way over the hill in 2011; as I am pretty sure he was on the wrong side of 30. Kobe never left the lakers to join other superstars. Look, Lebron is 3-5 in the finals, he will never catch Jordan. No way.

How many times does it need to be said that LeBrons first stint with Cleveland was with an inept front office who couldn't put anyone worth a Damn on LeBrons team. The simple fact he carried a bunch of scrubs to the nba finals was absolutely one of the most impressive feets ever. He gave them plenty of time to build around him and they didn't.

Kobe never left because they had a competent front office to surround him with great players that allowed him to win 2 more championships.

I love when people try to Knock LeBron for making 8 f*****g NBA finals, while neglecting to mention Jordan lost in the first round at least 4 times. Context man.

 

[michaeluk26]

I bet one on one everyone would be scared to bet 500 on it. Both sides.

I 100% agree with you. But God I would love to see it.

 

[morgousky]

I 100% agree with you. But God I would love to see it.

I would pay a lot of money to see that happen in their prime man. Both healthy and 29/30 years in age. I guess my money would be on Lebron, he's big and those fade aways in the rafters can't be guarded.

 

[Bigjoecatfan56]

How many times does it need to be said that LeBrons first stint with Cleveland was with an inept front office who couldn't put anyone worth a Damn on LeBrons team. The simple fact he carried a bunch of scrubs to the nba finals was absolutely one of the most impressive feets ever. He gave them plenty of time to build around him and they didn't.

Kobe never left because they had a competent front office to surround him with great players that allowed him to win 2 more championships.

I love when people try to Knock LeBron for making 8 f*****g NBA finals, while neglecting to mention Jordan lost in the first round at least 4 times. Context man.

I am not knocking him, I think he is the 9th best player of all time. That makes him a legend. Bye the way, Allen Iverson also carried a bunch of scrubs to the finals and even won a game against one of the best Laker teams of all time; where is he on your list?

 

[nptb]

I am not knocking him, I think he is the 9th best player of all time. That makes him a legend. Bye the way, Allen Iverson also carried a bunch of scrubs to the finals and even won a game against one of the best Laker teams of all time; where is he on your list?

On my list, Iverson is higher than Curry will ever be. He gave Jordan that work and Jordan had the nerve to call him a one man team.

 

[MdWIldcat55]

I 100% agree with you. But God I would love to see it.

One-on-one when both were 29 and in their prime, best of seven series, LeBron wins every time. He is simply too strong and athletic for Jordan to keep out of the paint to score easy baskets. Jordan would win some of the games in each series by getting red hot from 15-20 feet. But his overall shooting percentage does not support an argment that he could simply out-shoot LeBron in a best of seven series.

 

[nptb]

Someone quickly name the best defenders to guard Jordan and their height.

 

[king of cali]

Someone quickly name the best defenders to guard Jordan and their height.

Most effective were probably Dumars, Starks, and Payton. All were around 6’3 or 6’4.

 

[nptb]

Most effective were probably Dumars, Starks, and Payton. All were around 6’3 or 6’4.

All good athletes but not elite athletes and all guys he could just jump over. Gary Payton did the best job but didn't have as many match ups against him as the other two. Point is, they weren't very big guys even for their time where as Lebron is often guarded by guys 6'7 to 6'11 and are ridiculous athletes.

 

[mj2k10]

All good athletes but not elite athletes and all guys he could just jump over. Gary Payton did the best job but didn't have as many match ups against him as the other two. Point is, they weren't very big guys even for their time where as Lebron is often guarded by guys 6'7 to 6'11 and are ridiculous athletes.

Not Jordan's fault, just the way the game has changed.

People often fail to make the connection, but the death of the traditional big guy has happened not just because coaches have realized you can run an offense based on spacing and 3 point shooting that's more efficient than something traditional (like the triangle that Jordan played in), but also because there are so many more great athletes in the 6'7" to 6'11" range. Those guys can hang with 7 foot + giants while also having versatility on both ends of the court.

Jordan's era was conducive to his style of play. Anti-zone defense rules were more strictly enforced, making it more difficult to double him, and in many ways, the game was designed more to showcase individual brilliance than what you see now.

This era is probably more conducive to LeBron. The elimination of the hand-check means he can get a head of steam on his drives, after which almost no one can stop him. And the more spread-out floor gives him room to operate.

The one area where Jordan was clearly better than LeBron was the mid-range, and the game of the 80's and 90's was built around that. LeBron is best as a locomotive attacking the rim, with the occasional deep J to keep the defense honest.

 

[nptb]

Not Jordan's fault, just the way the game has changed.

People often fail to make the connection, but the death of the traditional big guy has happened not just because coaches have realized you can run an offense based on spacing and 3 point shooting that's more efficient than something traditional (like the triangle that Jordan played in), but also because there are so many more great athletes in the 6'7" to 6'11" range. Those guys can hang with 7 foot + giants while also having versatility on both ends of the court.

Jordan's era was conducive to his style of play. Anti-zone defense rules were more strictly enforced, making it more difficult to double him, and in many ways, the game was designed more to showcase individual brilliance than what you see now.

This era is probably more conducive to LeBron. The elimination of the hand-check means he can get a head of steam on his drives, after which almost no one can stop him. And the more spread-out floor gives him room to operate.

The one area where Jordan was clearly better than LeBron was the mid-range, and the game of the 80's and 90's was built around that. LeBron is best as a locomotive attacking the rim, with the occasional deep J to keep the defense honest.

Jordan has the best mid range jumper ever. That is a fact. I will never argue that with anyone.

Now if Lebron didn't have to deal with a zone a hand check isn't going to stop him from getting to the rim. You could literally put everyone but him on one side of the court and it would be murder season. He's the athletic version of Magic Johnson who I always considered the greatest ever until Lebron about 4 years ago.

 

[Bigjoecatfan56]

On my list, Iverson is higher than Curry will ever be. He gave Jordan that work and Jordan had the nerve to call him a one man team.

Give me Iverson over Curry as well.

 

[Bigjoecatfan56]

I don’t get involved in this discussion cause it’s largely stupid. That said, this drew my attention.

You take Scotty Pippen away from Jordan, he is greatly diminished. LaBron stands on his own. To say he is not in the conversation is, well, stupid like I said.

Trying to split hairs between the top 5 or 6 is just going to lead to pissing contests. The thing about James is not only is he in that conversation, but is there for more than one position. Truly position less.

Lebron stands on his own? lmao....Because Irving, Love, Bosh, and Wade are chop liver, right? My goodness that statement has officially blown my mind. Nice job.