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Jones saying he's hearing Gabriel may be gone soon

Its amazing how quickly this board's sentiment has changed from March, "I told you, Cal does this every year" and "when are you gonna learn to not doubt Cal in March?" to April, "its Cal's culture, its his fault cause he brought these players here, mass exodus" Sigh...
 
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This culture that Cal has created is ridiculous. These guys feel like total failures if they don't leave after 2 years.

And you’ve talked to them and know this. What about the culture of leaving after 1 year.

I think the culture is fans babbling utter nonsense about crap they know zero about. That culture is deeply ingrained in some.
 
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So does Arizona, LSU, Washington, Missouri, Texas, Miami, Oregon, UCLA and every other team in the NCAA. Cal didn't create the one and done culture, neither did AAU by itself.

No but some teams have done a much better job of having a balanced roster. There's a mass exodus with us every single year. This past year was supposed to be our rebuilding year, with 11-loses and a piss poor performance against K-State (in the easiest path of our history) and we're still dropping guys off our roster like flies. Cal sets the tone, get the credit when things go well and gets the blame when they don't. This one is on Cal.
 
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Sorta how Duke had a transcendent Bagley , very solid upperclassmen along with “best recruiting class ever” last year and made it exactly ONE game further than the Cats? Also not winning their Conference Tourney ? What culture is K creating at Duke?
They feel like “total failures ?” Did some of our players say they felt like total failures ?



IF Gabriel leaves it’s a terrible decision on his part. In no way is he remotely ready for the NBA, but Cal can only do so much. I’m very confident Cal and Co have told Gabriel he’s better off returning and working on his game, but at the end of the day he’s a 20 something year old who will make his own decisions.

GOOD on Cal though for busting his A$$ to secure some top guys for next years team though


Edit- not being combative Seccats , just sayin :)


and we'll be hearing the wait until March mantra next year while Cal is ending every interview with "we're young, I like my team, be mad at me" - rinse , lather and repeat.

Gabriel isn't the kid that is going to make us a national title contender but if he leaves it pretty much relegates us back to hope and optimism that this years bunch of great 5* freshmen are somehow going to be different than last years great 5* freshmen.

so we end up a 4 or 5 seed, complaining about how we should have been a 2 or even a 1, how the path to the national championship is too hard for us, etc.

its a predictable formula at this point, but people want to expect a different outcome when past history says otherwise.
Duke bought into it big time and now they are experiencing the same thing. I suspect Duke fans tolerance for this will be even shorter than Kentucky, because we're capable of convincing ourselves it will be different this year.

I love that Cal can land these great players, but the price to pay for them is this cycle of transfers and early departures.

We can choose to celebrate that great players want to come to UK, but at the end of the day, if we are a 9 loss team and a 4 seed going into the tourney, what is it doing for us?
 
Then, to be blunt, so what? It's broken and hopeless and we can't win that way and can't fix it? Look around the country. There are maybe four teams that would even hesitate before trading places with us.

Cool. This will be of great comfort next year when we have the youngest team in the country again, flame out in the Sweet 16 and lose 7 players.
 
No but some teams have done a much better job of having a balanced roster. There's a mass exodus with us every single year. This past year was supposed to be our rebuilding year, with 11-loses and a piss poor performance against K-State (in the easiest path of our history) and we're still dropping guys off our roster like flies. Cal sets the tone, get the credit when things go well and gets the blame when they don't. This one is on Cal.
That's mighty big of ya. Cal is Cal. He does his job by bringing in talent that are quality young men. We don't have car wrecks, DUIs, drug, assault issues since Cal has been here. I am pretty sure this is on players and their "circle". As to being recruited over, players have to be ready to fight for their spots. Can't pout and and transfer. The only thing Cal can do is make sure the program has options if and when the unexpected happens
 
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That's mighty big of ya. Cal is Cal. He does his job by bringing in talent that are quality young men. We don't have car wrecks, DUIs, drug, assault issues since Cal has been here. I am pretty sure this is on players and their "circle". As to being recruited over, players have to be ready to fight for their spots. Can't pout and and transfer. The only thing Cal can do is make sure the program has options if and when the unexpected happens

Cal created and has set the tone. Players that are in their second year feel the pressure to leave (go anywhere, not just NBA) because they would be perceived as failures. The numbers speak for themselves. Maybe I'm old school but I enjoy seeing a group of 8 guys knowing what the hell they are doing on the court. I'm not complaining about Cal's past. He benefited from some returnees like Miller, Liggins and Harrelson while recruiting the absolute best. I'm having serious doubts about the future in regards to championship contending. I knew this year was going to be a rebuilding year and I was totally supportive of that.
 
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also, lets say we had a different coach - a more traditional coach who recruited a team of 3 and 4 stars, built them up over time and had a continual flow of solid players and then landed the occasional 5 star - which put us in contention. If we had a couple of final fours and a national championship spread out over the course of 8 years, there would be just as many people on here supporting our approach to winning and dogging the programs who focus on OADs talking about how they get all that talent and still can't compete any more than we do with our approach.

So I get the whole defending Cal, the program and the approach, but I also understand that the level of support for another approach would be just as passionate and dedicated if we weren't a OAD program and went the more traditional route. - and yes there would be a bunch of people also saying that if our coach would just land a few of those OADs we'd be title contenders each year.

This isn't a I want Tubby back or that I want Jay Wright. This is just saying that there is a certain level of built in hypocrisy in all of this - no matter what we're doing short of just not being able to compete, the way UK doing it is going to be the best way.
 
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Not this rinse repeat BS again...if you gonna pose an argument at least dress it up a little, don't copy or imitate, that's just lazy. They only time I have ever heard that players FEEL like failures if they remain here more than a year is only from posters on this board. They usually claim whoever MJ said it. C'mon feelings of failure is why our players are trying to get drafted or play overseas cause they feel bad for staying over a year...
 
Cool. This will be of great comfort next year when we have the youngest team in the country again, flame out in the Sweet 16 and lose 7 players.

When you'll continue complaining while acknowledging you have no solution?

I mean, awesome I guess. I'd find a different hobby.
 
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When you'll continue complaining while acknowledging you have no solution?

I mean, awesome I guess. I'd find a different hobby.

Obviously the solution would be not to recruit multiple elite PGs when you already have a returning 5 star PG on your roster... but Cal has no intention of doing that so why bother?
 
The issue and why I believe people are freaking out is due to worry over losing anyone else. We can live with Gabriel gone but losing anyone else can't have that honestly and be very good next year. We must have green and Vanderbilt back if we are losing gabriel . PJ isn't worth talking about yet as we have to see how he does at combine. People can say what they want but I refuse to believe PJ stays in the draft with his father being who he is and the way PJ worded his announcement if he won't be drafted.
 
Obviously the solution would be not to recruit multiple elite PGs when you already have a returning 5 star PG on your roster... but Cal has no intention of doing that so why bother?
Not sure what this has to do with Gabriel . Why would not recruit multiple 5 star pgs? You should always recruit multiple 5 stars at every position. That is why losing Gabriel in itself doesn't hurt - we have Ej and JV and Richards still and will add a grad transfer or 2 .
 
Not sure what this has to do with Gabriel . Why would not recruit multiple 5 star pgs? You should always recruit multiple 5 stars at every position. That is why losing Gabriel in itself doesn't hurt - we have Ej and JV and Richards still and will add a grad transfer or 2 .

Because the message it sends is "if you aren't gone after one year, we'll bring in multiple people to replace you". It reinforces the "one and done or failure" mentality that is pervasive here.

How in the world can you build any sort of team year after year with that type of culture?
 
Obviously the solution would be not to recruit multiple elite PGs when you already have a returning 5 star PG on your roster... but Cal has no intention of doing that so why bother?

Anyone that follows our team has to know Cal is bringing these guys in because Quade is considering leaving. But okay, we'll assume for a second that isn't true.

What if Quade isn't very good and that's why Cal was able to get potentially three guys he feels would play over him?

You complain about losing several games, but what happens if Quade is our only PG and he can't cut it?

And then the same Quade who won't stay and battle because he's looking to get to the NBA ASAP and doesn't want to sit behind better players leaves to go play in Europe? What then?
 
I was bending including 3 year players, which WG will be. The actual fact is no team has won without significant contributions by 4 year players. We tried that in 14, 15, 18 and we will again in 19. Losing a quality 3 year player like WG would be bad.
In 15 WCS and Poythress were juniors and WCS was a 1st team all american does that count as significant contributions by 3 year players? And in 14 we played in the title game and I don’t believe experience is why we lost( injuries to WCS and Julius along with not staying in the zone).
 
No one has ever won one without significant contributions by 4 year players. Uconn was close one year so I'll include a 3 year player too.
Who was the significant 4 year player on Floridas 2006 title team, the first of the back to back? Since you say it’s a fact.
 
In 15 WCS and Poythress were juniors and WCS was a 1st team all american does that count as significant contributions by 3 year players? And in 14 we played in the title game and I don’t believe experience is why we lost( injuries to WCS and Julius along with not staying in the zone).
If you look back, you'll see that every winner had significant contributions from 4 year players. As I said before, I was bending things a bit to account for WG. All the if's and buts in the world don't change the fact that we didn't win those years.
 
The fact is virtually no team has tried, and tons of teams lose every year with all kinds of upperclassmen. There's just no formula to it.

What if we bring in Daum or Travis to replace Wenyen? Will it not count if we lose because he's new to the system but count if we win because they're technically experienced?
It will eventually happen, but taking the road we take just makes it harder. Agree or disagree I guess.
 
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There is no magical barrier preventing a team composition of any age from winning the championship. Rather the weight of a probability and the fact that the average freshman isn't very good holds down young teams historically.

No matter how good a team is in a season, they probably aren't going to win the championship. The field is stronger than an individual team, and in UK's case, the field is older because the field must prioritize player development because a few teams have a monopoly on the scant elite young talent in any given season.

Now, if you want to argue that the current culture at UK puts a ceiling on how good the program can be, that's a different argument and has merit.
 
It would not surprise me to come on this site and see the following.
Vanderbilt first player in history drafted after surgery and sporting a boot.
Green taking fast track speech course in Japanese for his destination to the foreign league.
Washington fools all and will sign with an agent after hearing of his G League destination.
Gabriel headed for Israel to show his skills.

Then we hear from Cal saying he has the most one and dones in leagues connected to the NBA.
Stuff like this happens when a team loses 11 ball games and thinks they are world beaters. If your a fan, may as well love it or take up something else.
 
Cool. This will be of great comfort next year when we have the youngest team in the country again, flame out in the Sweet 16 and lose 7 players.

could be worse. could have 4 year players, dont win anything but they get DUIs and rape chics
 
Not this rinse repeat BS again...if you gonna pose an argument at least dress it up a little, don't copy or imitate, that's just lazy. They only time I have ever heard that players FEEL like failures if they remain here more than a year is only from posters on this board. They usually claim whoever MJ said it. C'mon feelings of failure is why our players are trying to get drafted or play overseas cause they feel bad for staying over a year...

What if your coworkers got that raise and promotion and you didn’t? What if you stay and see that new coworker get that raise and promotion and again don’t get receive it, would you not feel like a failure? Would you not explore other options?
 
The problem is we have said that about everyone. Ok SGA is gone but if we get knox back, OK Knox is gone but if we get Diallo back, OK Diallo is gone but if we get Gabriel back, now OK Gabriel is gone but if we get Washington back. Within a few days we will be looking at it like well at least we have Richards back. Just about 10 days ago there was a chance it might have just been one departure and now we are starting over again. Definitely more frustrating than other off seasons so far. At some point this really will have to change.
I don't think anyone said we would be okay if we got Diallo back. In fact, I think most were clamoring for him to go.

As far as people saying we would be okay if Knox and SGA came back, well, they were saying UK would/could be 2015 good if those two came back and that was assuming we were going to keep guys like Wenyen, Green and PJ, guys that have no chance at getting drafted AND land a bunch of top recruits like Hagans, Maxey and Wiseman.

I just think we should be honest when we're quoting what was said.

But you're right, this is frustrating as hell, we can't even retain guys that will struggle in the D league.
 
And you’ve talked to them and know this. What about the culture of leaving after 1 year.

I think the culture is fans babbling utter nonsense about crap they know zero about. That culture is deeply ingrained in some.

You can log off a message board by yourself, but you can't take the idiots off a message board.

I think Aristotle said that.
 
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Because the message it sends is "if you aren't gone after one year, we'll bring in multiple people to replace you". It reinforces the "one and done or failure" mentality that is pervasive here.

How in the world can you build any sort of team year after year with that type of culture?
Completely agree. I think what a lot of folks on this board and Duke's board don't appreciate is that "talent" is only one part of a team winning. Experience, continuity, culture, coaching, those are all factors that together are much more important than just talent.

Now it's true that truly elite talent will overcome weaknesses in those other areas. But all it takes is for the level of talent to decrease just a bit - or a couple of missed evaluations by the staff - and you make it almost impossible to win consistently.
 
I don't blame any players for leaving and chasing their dream. Is it frustrating? of course it is.

This is not just a Kentucky thing. This is a high school ranking thing. Put yourself in Wenyen's shoes and look at the Rivals rankings from his class:

1. Josh Jackson - 4th pick in 2017 draft
2. Harry Giles - 20th pick in 2017 draft
3. Jayson tatum - 3rd pick in 2017 draft
4. Lonzo Ball - 2nd pick in 2017 draft
5. Markelle Fultz - 1st pick in 2017 draft
6. De'Aaron Fox - 5th pick in 2017 draft
7. Bam Adebayo - 14th pick in 2017 draft
8. Jonathan Isaac - 6th pick in 2017 draft
9. Malik Monk - 11th pick in 2017 draft
10. Miles Bridges - entering 2018 draft
11. Marquez Bolden - no decision yet
12. Frank Jackson - 31st pick in 2017 draft
13. Wenyen Gabriel - no decision yet
14. Terrance Ferguson - 21st pick in 2017 draft
15. Jarrett Allen - 22nd pick in 2017 draft

So, 13 out of the top 15 guys from last year have either been drafted or are entering this years draft. The remaining 2 are a guy (Bolden) who is considered the biggest bust of the class and Wenyen. There is so much pressure they put on themselves to get to the NBA as quickly as possibly as well as pressure from those around them I am sure.

It's what college basketball (not just Kentucky basketball) looks like these days.
 
Remember these kids get lifetime scholarships. They can always come back and get an education. It may not be as easy, I doubt they get the same attention from tutors and such but it's still an option.

Next year's draft is going to be even weaker then this year's, so my guess is that's the biggest reason he has to stay.

Other factors... Can he improve his skills and lateral mobility to reach the first round next season? The new NBA puts a premium on bigs that can defend in space and that can shoot (3s or pick and pop) Gabriel is making strides on shooting but does his body type and lack of fast twitch make him a 2nd rounder no matter when he declares? I think kids that are perpetual borderline 2nd round picks should seriously consider leaving and developing overseas or in the G-league.

Looking at his measurements... 6'9 - 6'11" wingspan and 8'11 standing reach are OK but not outstanding considering some of his movement limitations. His leaping is average, so he's not as much of a candidate to pick and dive and receive a lob <- obviously he can do this but not at the level of a Bam or other longer and/or more explosive athletes.
 
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