Isn't it a good thing?

[HeelVol]

I come in peace...let's explore this thought.

Isn't it a good thing that Kentucky welcomes back Oscar, an All-American who is not being pushed to the NBA for a OAD freshman?
Isn't it good that Daimion Collins, a physically talented 5 star, isn't being rushed to play big freshman minutes nor is he being pushed out to the pro-world for a OAD freshman, but instead can return as a soph and play a bigger role?
Isn't it good for Calipari to go after experienced transfers who can play roles AND be giddy about putting on that UK jersey?
Isn't it good to go after in-state stars?
Isn't it good to land 1-3 OAD talents every year and mix them in with veterans who know the ropes?

Too many Kentucky fans criticized UNC and pretty much every other college program but especially UNC for keeping players from going to the NBA. Yet, all I'm reading on this site is how Calipari should talk kids into staying, but in the past Roy doing so was bad and selfish. I guess the recruiting losses to Duke and possibly Louisville change perspective (I know about losing recruits to you guys, Duke and others).

Well, I'm here to applaud Calipari if he does recruit kids to stay at Kentucky and not make a player leave like he did with Bam, Fox, Monk. I bet those 3 kids would have come back and won a championship and still make millions if Calipari did sell the idea of staying.

Do you all think Calipari is being disingenuous when he says the greatest day in UK hoops history is that specific NBA draft simply because he thought out-talenting everyone with OAD 5 star players was the ticket to rings? I think so. I think he was thinking by saying that, the indirect sell, would be a perennial flood of 5 man, 5 star starting rosters going to the Final Four. I think he thought the UK brand and the Fab Five approach was a marriage made in heaven.

Reality is that only you and Duke won with OAD freshman. The reality is experienced talent, not even high level NBA talent, gets rings. Zions/Tatum/Randle/Fox/Monk/Bagley....no rings. But Kyle Guy/Justin Jackson/Joel Berry/Kris Jenkins...rings.

If Calipari is "forced" to shift his pitch by not getting 5 stars like DJ Wagner, I think it will pay off for UK. Calipari is a good coach as proven by his win loss record over a long career. Sure, catch lightning with Anthony Davis but I don't think there's another one like that or at least you can't peg those hopes on someone like a DJ Wagner or in Duke's case Dereck Lively.

Looks like how things are shaking out, Oscar and several really good athletic pieces will return (Toppin, Collins) and be joined by great OAD talent. Will Wallace be your PG? But you all look like an actual college team and not just a stop-over for the NBA. Your program AND college basketball will be better off if its run like a college program and not just an unapologetic NBA feeder system.

 

[Ron Mehico]

I just want to win and don’t really care how it’s done. 2010-2015 was lots of OAD and I enjoyed it tremendously. I’m not trying to moralize sports or make them more than what they are. It is entertainment - and it’s much more entertaining to win. This years regular season was actually really fun until the wheels fell off. If he can replicate that but maintain momentum everyone will be happy.

 

[St.PatterSoN-54-]

Wheels for Heels

 

[HeelVol]

I just want to win and don’t really care how it’s done. 2010-2015 was lots of OAD and I enjoyed it tremendously. I’m not trying to moralize sports or make them more than what they are. It is entertainment - and it’s much more entertaining to win. This years regular season was actually really fun until the wheels fell off. If he can replicate that but maintain momentum everyone will be happy.

Before the NCAAT, I and pretty much everyone who watched college basketball, thought Kentucky was a Final Four team. Yet, it was a team not defined by OAD phenoms although Ty Ty is OAD. I don't know what happened with St. Peters but the UK team was a strong team for the entire year and I'm sure was enjoyable. Lost momentum in the end

2010-2015 was a fearsome time for sure but Duke is now getting players that you (and I) want. We've had enough runway to see that rosters dominated OAD players don't win most of the rings. I think its better to approach to build teams versus constructing teams of AAU stars. It builds a sustainable program.

 

[CatPhight]

 

[G-PIP]

From a dependability standpoint, I do think you have to get your perimeter shooting and low post scoring from upperclassmen.

 

[Smashcat]

lololololol

 

[MdWIldcat55]

Was it a good thing when UNC set up an entire fake department to give basketball and football players grades who never attended a class or wrote a paper? Was it a good thing when Tami Hansborough was given a fake job to lure her son back for his senior year, before being busted for spending taxpayer dollars with a UNC official going to watch her other son play at Notre Dame? Was it a good thing when UNC looked the other way as a known felon gave free cars to players for many years -- Wheels for Heels? Was it a good thing when UNC's athletic department manipulated the guns and drugs arrest of PJ Hairston to keep him eligible until it was no longer useful, then dumped him? Was it useful for Ol' Roy to let Will Graves run an illegal drug selling operation from one of Roy's properties...I could go on.

Kentucky fans may be divided right now, but we are sure of one thing: UNC -CHEATS is a disgrace to the sport.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

Was it a good thing when UNC set up an entire fake department to give basketball and football players grades who never attended a class or wrote a paper? Was it a good thing when Tami Hansborough was given a fake job to lure her son back for his senior year, before being busted for spending taxpayer dollars with a UNC official going to watch her other son play at Notre Dame? Was it a good thing when UNC looked the other way as a known felon gave free cars to players for many years -- Wheels for Heels? Was it a good thing when UNC's athletic department manipulated the guns and drugs arrest of PJ Hairston to keep him eligible until it was no longer useful, then dumped him? Was it useful for Ol' Roy to let Will Graves run an illegal drug selling operation from one of Roy's properties...I could go on.

The point being, Kentucky fans may be divided right now, but we are sure of one thing: UNC -CHEATS is a disgrace to the sport.

Ask UNC fans if it was "a good thing" when they experienced the 2005, 2009, and 2017 national championships.

I'm sure they were thinking about Tamo Hansbrough in those moments and lamenting the moral erosion of their program.

 

[kentuckycriedfricken]

Note that a rival fan, who definitely is NOT interested in the success of UK basketball, is advocating the continuation of the status quo vis-a-vis Calipari.

 

[CatPhight]

How unc is able to field a team is staggering...speaks volumes to the integrity of the NCAA and its eventual demise. #tarholelaughingstock

 

[kats23]

Why do you care?

 

[Wonky]

Was it a good thing when UNC set up an entire fake department to give basketball and football players grades who never attended a class or wrote a paper? Was it a good thing when Tami Hansborough was given a fake job to lure her son back for his senior year, before being busted for spending taxpayer dollars with a UNC official going to watch her other son play at Notre Dame? Was it a good thing when UNC looked the other way as a known felon gave free cars to players for many years -- Wheels for Heels? Was it a good thing when UNC's athletic department manipulated the guns and drugs arrest of PJ Hairston to keep him eligible until it was no longer useful, then dumped him? Was it useful for Ol' Roy to let Will Graves run an illegal drug selling operation from one of Roy's properties...I could go on.

Kentucky fans may be divided right now, but we are sure of one thing: UNC -CHEATS is a disgrace to the sport.

/thread.

 

[bdroshek]

Wheels for Heels

Yeah man I saw that username and novella he had written and passed that up lol.

 

[cathouse]

Note that a rival fan, who definitely is NOT interested in the success of UK basketball, is advocating the continuation of the status quo vis-a-vis Calipari.

This is all you need to know about the condition of the program under Cal.

When UNC fans come to your board and laud the way Cal is leading our program right now......

Never in my wildest dreams......SMH.

P.S. Vol fans are VERY happy with Cal staying as long as possible. They LOVE that lifetime contract for Cal.

 

[ck-2]

Before the NCAAT, I and pretty much everyone who watched college basketball, thought Kentucky was a Final Four team.

I didn’t. I felt they could beat anyone today and then lose to almost anyone tomorrow ( but not St Peters). I just did not see them putting enough good games together in a row to make the final four.

 

[CatPhight]

 

[oldsports_]

Great post OP. The board needs more open dialogue with opposing fans.

 

[Wonky]

We've had enough runway to see that rosters dominated OAD players don't win most of the rings. I think its better to approach to build teams versus constructing teams of AAU stars. It builds a sustainable program.

I don’t disagree with this, but my rebuttal would be that, once a team is built, you then have to coach them properly, and Cal is lacking in that department. I’ll give you a prime example:

2017 UK vs UNC. Yes, UK had 3 OAD’s on that team, but they also had veterans in Willis, Hawkins, Mulder, and a sophomore Briscoe.

5 minutes to go in the game, UK is up 5 despite getting absolutely hosed by the officials for the entire first half of the game. Roy calls a timeout as the Cats have all the momentum due to the surprising play of Isaac Humphries. Roy goes to a zone. Heels proceed to go on like a 10-0 run as UK has no idea how to attack the zone. Yes, UK managed to tie the game once more before Maye’s shot won it, but that stretch was essentially where the game was lost. And this was not the first or last example of Cal’s teams melting down in the waning minutes. Hell, a lot of his teams have melted down well before crunch time, due to being unable to overcome even minor adjustments made by the opposing coach.

Talent matters. Experience matters. You can win with all of one and only some of the other, but a good mix of both is best. However, without a coach who can calm his kids down, be a leader, make adjustments, call timeouts, set up plays, and teach multiple facets of the game instead of just one, then you ain’t going far, period.

 

[struggler]

I come in peace...let's explore this thought.

Did UNCheat Cheat for multiple decades (and that is all we know of - could have been longer)? Didn't UNCheat benefit from being cheaters and then subsequently allowed to cheat by the NCAA? Didn't UNCheat pay millions to avoid accountability for cheating? Wasn't that good for the game? Can you acknowledge the cheating and getting away with it?

Your program AND college basketball will be better off if its run like a NON-CHEATING college program and not just an unapologetic CHEATING feeder system.

 

[H00SIER-Cat]

Isn't it good the FBI can wiretap and arrest coaches at multiple universities and not a single game gets vacated?

 

[Jont0805]

Also LOL at the idea of Cal selling collins and Oscar to come back. Yes he probably did but if either had NBA ability right now they would be out the door and Cal Would be blessing them.

also Op for using Bam, Monk And Fox as he could have talked them back when they were all sure fire top picks.

it’s not the lottery picks that fans have been upset about for years it is the Four year guys that are in d league or overseas now.

come in peace but talk complete nonsense. Good job OP

 

[bbncal02]

I just want to win and don’t really care how it’s done. 2010-2015 was lots of OAD and I enjoyed it tremendously. I’m not trying to moralize sports or make them more than what they are. It is entertainment - and it’s much more entertaining to win. This years regular season was actually really fun until the wheels fell off. If he can replicate that but maintain momentum everyone will be happy.

This right here.

Niw I don’t want us to openly cheat like some schools that won’t be named. But I’m also not so Polly Anna that I believe we aren’t bending some rules here and there.

With that being said it’s all about finding the right group of kids. We had that this year. I dare say no one wanted Cal gone in January. We were looking like national title winners.

But he broke this team somehow. And I know the injury bug got us (Tyty and Kellan) but doggone it. He reverted back to old Cal. And maybe it was to highlight Oscar. But man. It was some ugly ball.

you don’t have to have five superstars. You just don’t. You need one maybe two. And that’s for when all else fails, you got a guy that can go get points (Think Walker against us in 2014). But then you surround that guy with solid players. Good ball handlers. We were almost there this season. And then injuries got us and Cal ran out of ideas. That St Peters game pisses me off still. Knowing Kellan was hurt? I’d have thrown Allen out there. Just to see what happens. Put in Hopkins. Tell him to roll his stuff out there and pretend it’s LSU.

Cal just laid back and took it.

 

[K_TIME]

Your post had many inter tangled thoughts but I'll try to respond.

1. I have no qualms is stating the Roy UNC model will probably end up being the best one for UK going forward...and it's not perfect either.
2. It would be best if we could just pick out 3-4 top 10 guys like we used to in 2010-2014 (I'd argue UK in 2015 didn't land elite guys but won huge with 1 elite big guys and most of the rest were Sophmore/Junior that came back) and win with elite freshmen leading the way. But the reality we live in is Duke is what we were in that 5 year span and it ain't changing that I can see.
3. So what do you do if #2 is out of your hands. Trying to cobble together guys in 20/30's of recruiting rankings that still leave way early isn't going to work. So instead sell the UK brand as college for multi year guys and if you can score an elite kid...fine. But enough with the kids that have make holes in their game in HS and still have a mindset coming into UK it's one and done. So do the UNC, Nova, etc. models of multi year kids and coach dudes up over years. And use the portal to fill in a spot here and there....but not the portal is to fill up 60% of your minutes. The talent level in portal is that way for a reason.....those kids are deficient in many ways and not the backbone of a championship team.

 

[CatPhight]

 

[cathouse]

Thanks man. I needed a good laugh this morning. You're the best.

You gonna hurt some feelings with this one.

 

[HeelVol]

Note that a rival fan, who definitely is NOT interested in the success of UK basketball, is advocating the continuation of the status quo vis-a-vis Calipari.

Status quo? Your status quo is going after top recruits to see them pick Duke, Washington, OkSt and possibly Louisville and then cleaning house for the next group. If Oscar comes back and I hope he does, it would be good for you guys and college basketball.

 

[sam_o]

Just be glad your program hasn’t been burned to the ground. UNC got away with the worst cheating scandal in college sports history, congratulations. Stop pretending you care about UK basketball.

 

[HeelVol]

I don’t disagree with this, but my rebuttal would be that, once a team is built, you then have to coach them properly, and Cal is lacking in that department. I’ll give you a prime example:

2017 UK vs UNC. Yes, UK had 3 OAD’s on that team, but they also had veterans in Willis, Hawkins, Mulder, and a sophomore Briscoe.

5 minutes to go in the game, UK is up 5 despite getting absolutely hosed by the officials for the entire first half of the game. Roy calls a timeout as the Cats have all the momentum due to the surprising play of Isaac Humphries. Roy goes to a zone. Heels proceed to go on like a 10-0 run as UK has no idea how to attack the zone. Yes, UK managed to tie the game once more before Maye’s shot won it, but that stretch was essentially where the game was lost. And this was not the first or last example of Cal’s teams melting down in the waning minutes. Hell, a lot of his teams have melted down well before crunch time, due to being unable to overcome even minor adjustments made by the opposing coach.

Talent matters. Experience matters. You can win with all of one and only some of the other, but a good mix of both is best. However, without a coach who can calm his kids down, be a leader, make adjustments, call timeouts, set up plays, and teach multiple facets of the game instead of just one, then you ain’t going far, period.

Thanks for the reply.

So are you saying UK should just get rid of Calipari as he is just a recruiter who lately can't recruit?

Unlike some rival fans, talent is just one aspect of a successful program. Cal has brought together lots of pieces and made them a team who win the SEC and get far in the dance. Roy won a ring without NBA all stars ad lottery picks.

Why can't Cal at UK (but he will almost always get at least 1-2 top 10 recruits every year).

 

[Wonky]

So are you saying UK should just get rid of Calipari as he is just a recruiter who lately can't recruit?

I’m saying that even when he could recruit, he’s had very little to show for it, relatively speaking.

Let’s say Oscar and Sharpe both return. Plus you have Wallace, Livingston, a healthy Frederick (who was about a 50% 3-point shooter at Iowa, as well as their best defensive player), Toppin, Wheeler, and Collins. If that turns out to be the roster, anything less than a national championship is a disappointment. I’m sorry, it just is. If you cannot win the title with that roster then you are never winning another one.

 

[HeelVol]

I’m saying that even when he could recruit, he’s had very little to show for it, relatively speaking.

Let’s say Oscar and Sharpe both return. Plus you have Wallace, Livingston, a healthy Frederick (who was about a 50% 3-point shooter at Iowa, as well as their best defensive player), Toppin, Wheeler, and Collins. If that turns out to be the roster, anything less than a national championship is a disappointment. I’m sorry, it just is. If you cannot win the title with that roster then you are never winning another one.

Very talented plus experience. That's a FF squad no doubt.