If baseball has total bases, football has total yards, why can't b-ball have "PRABS"?

[Estil]

What I mean by that if other sports like football has total yards offense and total yards allowed on defense...and if baseball has so-called "total bases" (I say so called because it only counts total bases from hits only...it doesn't include walks, hit by pitch, steals, etc)...why can't basketball have a stat called "prabs"? Of course that's an acronym for the combined total of Points, Rebounds, Assists, Blocks, Steals. See I read on wiki or somewhere that way back in the day, Red Aerubach told Bill Russell that his main job was rebounding rather than points but offered to have someone score them as if they were just as good as points.

So I figure, why couldn't we have a basketball stat that covers all five of the main "good" statistical categories? You think "prabs" would be a good name for it? And as for our players, who in history (well starting from the time that steals and blocks started being recorded) is the all time leader in "prabs"? Perhaps have a prabs per game average?

Hey if baseball can have all these weird sabermetrics or whatever they're called I don't see why prabs can't catch on as a key basketball stat.

 

[Kentucky fan 1989]

For some reason this reminds me of Baseketball.

 

[JerseyCat84]

Ermahgawd

 

[BBUK]

Put the ball in the hole...oh, that's golf...

 

[CELTICAT]

This exists. It’s called a Game Score.

https://captaincalculator.com/sports/basketball/game-score-calculator/

 

[drbubba]

What I mean by that if other sports like football has total yards offense and total yards allowed on defense...and if baseball has so-called "total bases" (I say so called because it only counts total bases from hits only...it doesn't include walks, hit by pitch, steals, etc)...why can't basketball have a stat called "prabs"? Of course that's an acronym for the combined total of Points, Rebounds, Assists, Blocks, Steals. See I read on wiki or somewhere that way back in the day, Red Aerubach told Bill Russell that his main job was rebounding rather than points but offered to have someone score them as if they were just as good as points.

So I figure, why couldn't we have a basketball stat that covers all five of the main "good" statistical categories? You think "prabs" would be a good name for it? And as for our players, who in history (well starting from the time that steals and blocks started being recorded) is the all time leader in "prabs"? Perhaps have a prabs per game average?

Hey if baseball can have all these weird sabermetrics or whatever they're called I don't see why prabs can't catch on as a key basketball stat.

So instead of double-doubles and triple-doubles, we'd count prabs totals. I like it. As it is a guy could have 9 in each category and not much recognition.

 

[BigKari]

I like it too. But I would call it P-BARS

 

[JPScott]

This exists. It’s called a Game Score.

https://captaincalculator.com/sports/basketball/game-score-calculator/

And this game score looks like a modified Tendex Rating.

There’s a number of ratings systems out there. Some are included below for past UK Players.

Link to Explanation & links to UK player ratings

 

[EastKYWildcat]

Who do you all think will lead us in dribbles this season?

 

[morgousky]

Quickly will lead in drop steps.

 

[H00SIER-Cat]

Will Briscoe's record for stepping on the baseline fall this season?

 

[UK90]

What I mean by that if other sports like football has total yards offense and total yards allowed on defense...and if baseball has so-called "total bases" (I say so called because it only counts total bases from hits only...it doesn't include walks, hit by pitch, steals, etc)...why can't basketball have a stat called "prabs"? Of course that's an acronym for the combined total of Points, Rebounds, Assists, Blocks, Steals. See I read on wiki or somewhere that way back in the day, Red Aerubach told Bill Russell that his main job was rebounding rather than points but offered to have someone score them as if they were just as good as points.

So I figure, why couldn't we have a basketball stat that covers all five of the main "good" statistical categories? You think "prabs" would be a good name for it? And as for our players, who in history (well starting from the time that steals and blocks started being recorded) is the all time leader in "prabs"? Perhaps have a prabs per game average?

Hey if baseball can have all these weird sabermetrics or whatever they're called I don't see why prabs can't catch on as a key basketball stat.

Basketball essentially already has that. That's what Player Efficiency Rating (ie. "PER") is designed to do, summarize a player's stat contribution in one number that takes into account ALL the good statistical categories.

 

[EliteBlue]

Who do you all think will lead us in dribbles this season?

Hagans

 

[JPScott]

Basketball essentially already has that. That's what Player Efficiency Rating (ie. "PER") is basically designed to do, summarize a player's contribution in one number that takes into account ALL the good statistical categories.

FWIW, the PER was developed for & normalized to NBA players.

Although some have adopted it on its face, I’ve never seen a PER that is directly applicable & appropriate for college players.

 

[Ocornett]

How bout we just stick with the final score, points, turnovers, assist, free throw%, shots, dunks, & rebounds. Oh, I would add one more DPG after seeing our beautiful cheerleaders and that fox on the girls basketball team. If I looked at her in person I would be dribbling all over Rupp Arena.

 

[Bluegrass79]

I like the idea OP. Good suggestion. I'd like to know, just like you, who is the king of prab's at Kentucky.
Its probably either a 4 year point guard or Dan Issel. One of the 2. Dan the Man!!

 

[Estil]

Basketball essentially already has that. That's what Player Efficiency Rating (ie. "PER") is designed to do, summarize a player's stat contribution in one number that takes into account ALL the good statistical categories.

That's way too complicated for those who are not math whizzes (I sadly only managed a D in calculus at UK ;P ). As for the ones JPScott suggested, that's more like a QB rating in football...the prabs stat would be far simpler. Just add five basic numbers together. And if you like you can do prabs per game...not sure what the abbreviation for that would be though, as ppg is already the classic points per game.

 

[JonathanW]

What I mean by that if other sports like football has total yards offense and total yards allowed on defense...and if baseball has so-called "total bases" (I say so called because it only counts total bases from hits only...it doesn't include walks, hit by pitch, steals, etc)...why can't basketball have a stat called "prabs"? Of course that's an acronym for the combined total of Points, Rebounds, Assists, Blocks, Steals. See I read on wiki or somewhere that way back in the day, Red Aerubach told Bill Russell that his main job was rebounding rather than points but offered to have someone score them as if they were just as good as points.

So I figure, why couldn't we have a basketball stat that covers all five of the main "good" statistical categories? You think "prabs" would be a good name for it? And as for our players, who in history (well starting from the time that steals and blocks started being recorded) is the all time leader in "prabs"? Perhaps have a prabs per game average?

Hey if baseball can have all these weird sabermetrics or whatever they're called I don't see why prabs can't catch on as a key basketball stat.

Here is my simplified Statistician answer.

There could be. The key is to get common acceptance and use of any new statistic. I remember years ago baseball adding Game Winning RBI. IMO a silly stat, is the go ahead run more important than the game tieing one, or the ones before that. No!

PRABS. OK, it's easy enough to calculate, and understand. The problem with it is that how accurate is it for answering the question that I assume you are trying to address, who had the best over-all game. By simply summing those categories, you are assuming they are all equal. I think few would agree that they are all equal. IMO I would rank them in importance (per 1 unit) as: ST > PT > BLK > Reb > AST. But it might be challenging to get a consensus on how to rank these, and I KNOW it would be a challenge to be able to get a consensus on how to weight them. You could do some multivariate regression analysis to help. But there are a lot of other factors to consider also, some of which aren't easy to quantify (i.e. defensive points allowed, skill/quality of opponents, minutes played, good/poor coaching decisions)

 

[BigBlueMasterpiece]

Here is my simplified Statistician answer.

There could be. The key is to get common acceptance and use of any new statistic. I remember years ago baseball adding Game Winning RBI. IMO a silly stat, is the go ahead run more important than the game tieing one, or the ones before that. No!

PRABS. OK, it's easy enough to calculate, and understand. The problem with it is that how accurate is it for answering the question that I assume you are trying to address, who had the best over-all game. By simply summing those categories, you are assuming they are all equal. I think few would agree that they are all equal. IMO I would rank them in importance (per 1 unit) as: ST > PT > BLK > Reb > AST. But it might be challenging to get a consensus on how to rank these, and I KNOW it would be a challenge to be able to get a consensus on how to weight them. You could do some multivariate regression analysis to help. But there are a lot of other factors to consider also, some of which aren't easy to quantify (i.e. defensive points allowed, skill/quality of opponents, minutes played, good/poor coaching decisions)

Here is my simplified Statistician answer.

There could be. The key is to get common acceptance and use of any new statistic. I remember years ago baseball adding Game Winning RBI. IMO a silly stat, is the go ahead run more important than the game tieing one, or the ones before that. No!

PRABS. OK, it's easy enough to calculate, and understand. The problem with it is that how accurate is it for answering the question that I assume you are trying to address, who had the best over-all game. By simply summing those categories, you are assuming they are all equal. I think few would agree that they are all equal. IMO I would rank them in importance (per 1 unit) as: ST > PT > BLK > Reb > AST. But it might be challenging to get a consensus on how to rank these, and I KNOW it would be a challenge to be able to get a consensus on how to weight them. You could do some multivariate regression analysis to help. But there are a lot of other factors to consider also, some of which aren't easy to quantify (i.e. defensive points allowed, skill/quality of opponents, minutes played, good/poor coaching decisions)

One factor that I have not seen in any quantifiable player stat is a coefficient for SOS. The SOS is a pretty direct contributor to a player's individual stats in my opinion.

 

[LostinIndiana]

How about weighting each category differently since say steals i harder get than points, and blocks harder than points? It wouldn't be fair to certain positions otherwise. Points could carry a point for point score, rebounding times 2, blocks and steals times three. Then it could be weighted differently for each position.
I can't believe I just wrote that. Off season doldrums have damaged me beyond repair.

 

[Estil]

One factor that I have not seen in any quantifiable player stat is a coefficient for SOS. The SOS is a pretty direct contributor to a player's individual stats in my opinion.

Not this kind of SOS right?

 

[DrH. Lecter]

I like it too. But I would call it P-BARS

I prefer B-RASP. Or B-PARS. Or B-RAPS. SPARB or calling it Spare Rib.

 

[JPScott]

What I mean by that if other sports like football has total yards offense and total yards allowed on defense...and if baseball has so-called "total bases" (I say so called because it only counts total bases from hits only...it doesn't include walks, hit by pitch, steals, etc)...why can't basketball have a stat called "prabs"? Of course that's an acronym for the combined total of Points, Rebounds, Assists, Blocks, Steals. See I read on wiki or somewhere that way back in the day, Red Aerubach told Bill Russell that his main job was rebounding rather than points but offered to have someone score them as if they were just as good as points.

So I figure, why couldn't we have a basketball stat that covers all five of the main "good" statistical categories? You think "prabs" would be a good name for it? And as for our players, who in history (well starting from the time that steals and blocks started being recorded) is the all time leader in "prabs"? Perhaps have a prabs per game average?

In case anyone is interested, below are the results. I included two sets of data, the first is all-time which includes years from before there were blocks and steals etc. available. Because of this the data is underestimating the actual values they would be (PRABS per Game).

All-Time PRABS Rating (per game)
Player Season PRABS Rating
Dan Issel 1969-70 48.429
Cliff Hagan 1951-52 42.125
Dan Issel 1968-69 42
Cotton Nash 1961-62 39.385
Bill Spivey 1950-51 38.879
Cotton Nash 1963-64 38.037
Cliff Hagan 1953-54 37.52
Bob Burrow 1954-55 36.692
Kenny Walker 1984-85 36.484
Bob Burrow 1955-56 35.68
Jim Andrews 1971-72 35.25
Cotton Nash 1962-63 35.2
Jamal Mashburn 1992-93 34.941
Jim Andrews 1972-73 34.857
Pat Riley 1965-66 33.103
Jamal Mashburn 1991-92 33
Mike Pratt 1969-70 32.321
Kevin Grevey 1974-75 32.129
Patrick Patterson 2008-09 31.824
Anthony Davis 2011-12 31.8
Kenny Walker 1985-86 31.556
Sam Bowie 1980-81 31.321
Ted Deeken 1963-64 31.231
Mike Casey 1968-69 31
Tom Parker 1971-72 30.963
Johnny Cox 1956-57 30.5
Kevin Grevey 1973-74 30.48
Frank Ramsey 1951-52 30.469
Jodie Meeks 2008-09 30.333
Johnny Cox 1958-59 30.148
Mike Casey 1967-68 30.037

If you just are interested in the ratings since all statistical categories were available (i.e. the 1978-79 season), the results would be the following:

PRABS Rating (per game) since 1978-79
Player Season PRABS Rating
Kenny Walker 1984-85 36.484
Jamal Mashburn 1992-93 34.941
Jamal Mashburn 1991-92 33
Patrick Patterson 2008-09 31.824
Anthony Davis 2011-12 31.8
Kenny Walker 1985-86 31.556
Sam Bowie 1980-81 31.321
Jodie Meeks 2008-09 30.333
John Wall 2009-10 29.757
Terrence Jones 2010-11 29.105
Tyler Ulis 2015-16 28.914
Antoine Walker 1995-96 28.861
DeMarcus Cousins 2009-10 28.737
Reggie Hanson 1989-90 28.714
Jamal Murray 2015-16 28.639
Tayshaun Prince 2000-01 28.118
Julius Randle 2013-14 28.1
Chris Mills 1988-89 28.094
Tayshaun Prince 2001-02 27.969
Nerlens Noel 2012-13 27.958
Patrick Patterson 2007-08 27.92
Rex Chapman 1987-88 27.75
Randolph Morris 2006-07 27.735
Ron Mercer 1996-97 27.7
Derek Anderson 1996-97 27.368
De'Aaron Fox 2016-17 26.917
Reggie Hanson 1990-91 26.607
Brandon Knight 2010-11 26.368
Malik Monk 2016-17 26.079
Winston Bennett 1987-88 26
Tony Delk 1995-96 25.917
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander 2017-18 25.757
LeRon Ellis 1988-89 25.75
Derrick Miller 1989-90 25.607
Tony Delk 1993-94 25.324
Ramel Bradley 2007-08 25.3
Keith Bogans 2000-01 25.235
Melvin Turpin 1982-83 25.161
Jamaal Magloire 1999-00 25.061
Erik Daniels 2003-04 24.969
Melvin Turpin 1983-84 24.853
Patrick Patterson 2009-10 24.763
John Pelphrey 1990-91 24.536
Chuck Hayes 2003-04 24.531
Derrick Hord 1981-82 24.467
Joe Crawford 2007-08 24.433
Rajon Rondo 2005-06 24.412
Rodrick Rhodes 1993-94 24.364
Sam Bowie 1979-80 24.324
Kyle Macy 1979-80 24.229
Kyle Macy 1978-79 24.226
Sam Bowie 1983-84 24.206
Deron Feldhaus 1989-90 24.071
Edrice Adebayo 2016-17 24.026
John Pelphrey 1989-90 24
Jeff Brassow 1991-92 24
Melvin Turpin 1981-82 23.967
Terrence Jones 2011-12 23.921
Tony Delk 1994-95 23.879
Chuck Hayes 2004-05 23.765
Rex Chapman 1986-87 23.586
Keith Bogans 2002-03 23.528
Kevin Knox 2017-18 23.514
Ed Davender 1987-88 23.455
Ed Davender 1986-87 23.414
Jamal Mashburn 1990-91 23.25
Tayshaun Prince 1999-00 23.25
John Pelphrey 1991-92 23.111
Michael Kidd-Gilchrist 2011-12 23.1
Gerald Fitch 2003-04 23.069
Scott Padgett 1998-99 23.027
Winston Bennett 1985-86 22.944
Archie Goodwin 2012-13 22.939
Isaiah Briscoe 2016-17 22.806
Nazr Mohammed 1997-98 22.795
Ramel Bradley 2006-07 22.529
Kelenna Azubuike 2004-05 22.324
Travis Ford 1992-93 22.265
Rodrick Rhodes 1994-95 22.242
Walter McCarty 1995-96 22.222
Dirk Minniefield 1981-82 22.167
Scott Padgett 1997-98 22.103
Jeff Sheppard 1997-98 21.842
Joe Crawford 2006-07 21.588
Randolph Morris 2005-06 21.524
Travis Ford 1993-94 21.394
James Young 2013-14 21.225
Kenny Walker 1983-84 21.147
Marquis Estill 2002-03 21.056
Cliff Hawkins 2003-04 20.969
Heshimu Evans 1998-99 20.946
Karl-Anthony Towns 2014-15 20.821
Fred Cowan 1979-80 20.743
Derrick Miller 1988-89 20.281
Robert Lock 1987-88 20.242
Lavon Williams 1978-79 20.194

 

[JPScott]

Here is my simplified Statistician answer.

There could be. The key is to get common acceptance and use of any new statistic. I remember years ago baseball adding Game Winning RBI. IMO a silly stat, is the go ahead run more important than the game tieing one, or the ones before that. No!

PRABS. OK, it's easy enough to calculate, and understand. The problem with it is that how accurate is it for answering the question that I assume you are trying to address, who had the best over-all game. By simply summing those categories, you are assuming they are all equal. I think few would agree that they are all equal. IMO I would rank them in importance (per 1 unit) as: ST > PT > BLK > Reb > AST. But it might be challenging to get a consensus on how to rank these, and I KNOW it would be a challenge to be able to get a consensus on how to weight them. You could do some multivariate regression analysis to help. But there are a lot of other factors to consider also, some of which aren't easy to quantify (i.e. defensive points allowed, skill/quality of opponents, minutes played, good/poor coaching decisions)

Good points.

I agree that it's not generally the best estimate to assume that all stats are equal to each other. For example as you show a steal generally more valuable than other stats, because not only does it lead to possession (and end a possession from the other team) but it generally leads to points on the other end.

For those who are aren't aware, one of the earliest and established rating system was the "Tendex" system developed by Dave Heeran. It's similar to the PRABS in that it adds up positive stats, but then it also subtracts out negative items like missed field goals, turnovers etc. For that reason alone I would considerthe Tendex a better measure than PRABS, which doesn't provide any penalty for those who for example require a lot of shots to get their points.

The Tendex system also includes a Game Pace factor which accounts for the pace of play, which helps IMO to allow for better comparison between eras and coaching styles etc. So for example if you play in a run-and-gun system that scores a lot of points you don't receive an artificial boost just because you benefitted from that, as opposed to someone who played in a more conservative paced game.

Looking at the Tendex per Game on a Season basis, the results are pretty similar to what the PRABS shows.

Tendex by Game since 1979

Heeran through the years tried to argue that there were legitimate reasons for assigning all stat categories an equal weight.

I find it all too convenient, and think it is more realistic to assign some coefficients to each category, in part based on how important the stat is on the game outcome, but also to account for how often each stat occurs (for example a steal happens far less often than a rebound or point so when it happens it should hold some premium in order to make it more comparable).

There's some other inequities, for example front court players tend to grab more rebounds and shoot a higher percentage which tends to favor them in these type of rating so just by that things like assists and steals etc. (i.e. things that perimeter players tend to pick up) should arguably have a higher weighting.

At one point I took a stab at creating a 'modified' Tendex which does use alternative coefficients other than 1.0 for each stat category. In reality, there's not a whole lot of difference between its results and those of the standard Tendex.

Modified Tendex by Game since 1979

 

[Estil]

So who leads in overall PRABS? Career, season, game?

 

[Estil]

Is it true you have some sort of master program/spreadsheet or something that automatically calculates the stats and such so you don't have to for example manually calcuate per game averages, season totals and so on? If possible I'd love to have a copy of it for my own use?

 

[JC43]

Awesome sauce! Better than what i thought as PER...imagine Nerlens score if he didn't get injured, maybe top 8. Really shows what a beast Monster Mash was .Thanks for sharing @JPScott .

 

[Fox2monk]

Awesome sauce! Better than what i thought as PER...imagine Nerlens score if he didn't get injured, maybe top 8. Really shows what a beast Monster Mash was .Thanks for sharing @JPScott .

I thought Mash would be even higher. Imagine what Nash, Issel, and Hagen would have done with the other stats. Wow.

 

[Estil]

So I recently did a google search and apparently a few other guys suggested this stat, one going as far back as 2012 so I guess I'm out of luck as far as being the stat's inventor But I guess it makes no never mind I still think it should become a regularly used statistic.

 

[podgejeff_]

The career/minute list just confirms my suspicion that Collins needs to play more.