This. Live ball turnovers are so much different than dead ball turnovers. Wheeler’s shot selection is horrible. We don’t need a ton of scoring from the point position. Somehow, Wheeler thinks we do.
I just rewatched the UT game highlights
- Thread starter BBNWildcat
- Start date
Dude. Just no on most of this.
Wheeler averages 6.5 assists with players missing shots. So with them making, he gets those 6 assists.
Wallace did not guard. People quit saying that. He got beaten time after time on defense. Ziegler just missed wide open layups.
None live ball.. like when Vescovi ripped him in the first half then got a layup? Wallace could barely dribble against the Defense without turning his back. It was brutal to watch at the end of the game.
I love CJ and was elated to see him play so well on defense. He hit a couple of shots very early on, but I do not think it's accurate to say he was "hot" during this game ... and I think he would agree. NOBODY was hot from the field, but everyone was hot from the free-throw line. I would agree that our team needs to GET HOT and stay hot, all the while playing with the kind of relentless effort they showed against the VOLS. If we can do that, there's a chance we could make a little noise.
We only made thirteen (13) 2-pointers and five (5) 3-pointers for the game., totaling only 41 points from the field. We will have to do much better ... and I certainly think we can. I DEFINITELY loved our getting to the line, however, It was key !!
Disagree that he thinks we need scoring. He’s been forced into trying because our other players have not panned out like we thought.
Look at our best games last year, it was Wheeler finding shooters (Kansas, TN) and not being the “scorer”.
Our wings haven’t been aggressive because 1.) the lane is clogged with Wheeler and 2.) Wheeler pounds the ball out front, instead of effectively moving the ball around and making the defense move.
Sure. The 2 time SEC leader in assists wouldn't have had any assists.
You're mis-remembering. A Tennessee player just knocked the ball from his hands and took it in for a lay-up.
I like Toppin, but am not sold for some reason.... Can't put my finger on it. Extremely athletic (we know), but not a great FT shooter or jump shooter (streaky).
Don't think he's a "gamer".... a hustler, yes.... but not a crunch time player.
am hoping he proves me wrong >> consistently
Don't forget Wheeler's year at GA prior to transferring... yes, he had high assist numbers, but he equally had high turnover numbers -- people keep forgetting....
| Season | Player | Minutes | FG% | 3PT% | FT% | Assists | A / Min | TO | TO / MIN | A/TO | PPG |
| 09-10 | Wall | 1288 | 46.12% | 32.46% | 75.43% | 241 | 0.187 | 149 | 0.116 | 1.62 | 16.65 |
| 10-11 | Knight | 1363 | 42.30% | 37.66% | 79.53% | 159 | 0.117 | 120 | 0.088 | 1.33 | 17.29 |
| 11-12 | Teague | 1303 | 41.19% | 32.50% | 71.43% | 191 | 0.147 | 109 | 0.084 | 1.75 | 10.03 |
| 12-13 | Harrow | 787 | 41.35% | 29.58% | 70.77% | 82 | 0.104 | 48 | 0.061 | 1.71 | 9.90 |
| 12-13 | Goodwin | 1048 | 43.98% | 26.56% | 63.68% | 88 | 0.084 | 101 | 0.096 | 0.87 | 14.12 |
| 13-14 | Harrison | 1267 | 36.67% | 35.11% | 76.44% | 159 | 0.126 | 109 | 0.086 | 1.46 | 10.85 |
| 14-15 | Harrison | 994 | 37.83% | 38.30% | 79.25% | 139 | 0.140 | 64 | 0.064 | 2.17 | 9.33 |
| 14-15 | Ulis | 882 | 40.61% | 42.86% | 80.77% | 135 | 0.153 | 38 | 0.043 | 3.55 | 5.65 |
| 15-16 | Ulis | 1287 | 43.44% | 34.38% | 85.64% | 246 | 0.191 | 69 | 0.054 | 3.57 | 17.31 |
| 16-17 | Fox | 1064 | 47.77% | 24.64% | 73.93% | 165 | 0.155 | 87 | 0.082 | 1.90 | 16.69 |
| 17-18 | Gilg-Alex | 1248 | 48.54% | 40.35% | 81.71% | 189 | 0.151 | 99 | 0.079 | 1.91 | 14.38 |
| 17-18 | Green | 869 | 45.14% | 37.61% | 80.77% | 91 | 0.105 | 55 | 0.063 | 1.65 | 9.26 |
| 18-19 | Green | 160 | 44.90% | 42.31% | 89.47% | 21 | 0.131 | 21 | 0.131 | 1.00 | 8.00 |
| 18-19 | Hagans | 1054 | 46.73% | 27.45% | 76.09% | 160 | 0.152 | 94 | 0.089 | 1.70 | 7.68 |
| 19-20 | Hagans | 996 | 40.38% | 25.81% | 80.99% | 191 | 0.192 | 103 | 0.103 | 1.85 | 11.50 |
| 19-20 | Maxey | 1068 | 42.74% | 29.20% | 83.33% | 98 | 0.092 | 67 | 0.063 | 1.46 | 13.97 |
| 20-21 | Askew | 722 | 34.51% | 27.78% | 80.65% | 73 | 0.101 | 50 | 0.069 | 1.46 | 6.52 |
| 20-21 | Mintz | 769 | 39.67% | 38.10% | 65.57% | 77 | 0.100 | 47 | 0.061 | 1.64 | 11.52 |
| 21-22 | Mintz | 768 | 38.22% | 34.38% | 70.15% | 55 | 0.072 | 31 | 0.040 | 1.77 | 8.48 |
| 21-22 | Wheeler | 937 | 44.12% | 30.77% | 77.97% | 207 | 0.221 | 91 | 0.097 | 2.27 | 10.07 |
| 21-22 | Washington | 906 | 45.10% | 34.95% | 75.00% | 120 | 0.133 | 51 | 0.056 | 2.35 | 12.52 |
| 22-23 | Wheeler | 483 | 41.48% | 38.46% | 53.33% | 95 | 0.197 | 33 | 0.068 | 2.88 | 9.53 |
| 22-23 | Wallace | 518 | 46.05% | 41.33% | 57.69% | 65 | 0.126 | 30 | 0.058 | 2.17 | 10.94 |
Sahvir Wheeler College Stats | College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com
Sahvir Wheeler - Stats, Game Logs, Splits, and much more
www.sports-reference.com
John Wall was helluva player, obviously, and played with far more talent than most here (especially Wheeler), but ... you have to be honest about it ... he was very turnover-prone, if you want to talk turnovers. Wheeler's TO-rate has been much-improved since coming to Kentucky. fwiw ...
Career High Assists
www.bigbluehistory.net
Last edited:
This. It was beyond obvious. Thought he did fine and never tried to force the issue.
Agreed, he appeared hampered. Nothing was ever said about it, but it appeared obvious to me that Wheeler was hurt against South Carolina. He played the full forty (40) minutes (Wallace left the game) and I thought he definitely was nowhere near as quick as he normally is. I could be wrong, but I thought that the entire game. Just seemed that way to me, then, he sits out against VOLS, but I don't really know.
Wallace didn’t play well at all, hasn’t played well the last few games for that matter, but for this team to reach their full potential he has to be in the lineup playing well over anything we are going to get from wheeler. Wheelers man simply gets a shot over him anytime they want most games, they can’t do that on Wallace. They also can’t sag off Wallace on the offensive end as they do wheeler. Wheeler is a nice backup for an average of 15 minutes per game but relying on him more than that with this years team gets you the results we have seen the last 6 games prior to UT and that was a 2-4 record.
Reeves is a volume-shooter and is fearless about shooting. He will definitely take the shots. I like that !!
It’s funny how Thiero gets no clock in most games, but the second Cal needs a guy that will fight (@ Alabama and @ UT), he puts him in. That should tell him something.
I love Thiero and you are 100% spot-on. He consistently plays hard and I think he deserves more minutes.
I coached for over twenty (20) years, not at any highly-competitive level, but I always thought the distribution of playing time was about the most difficult decision a coach has to make. You want to give your team the best chance to win and be totally fair to each player at the same time. Not easy. Allocating minutes in game situations is much like a baseball coach trying to decide whether to leave a pitcher in, or not. Tough calls ...
Here is how I see it: You have 120 minutes to spread at the PG, SG & SF positions among the following:
Wheeler, Wallace, Fredrick, Reeves, Thiero and Livingston (assuming Livingston does not play the 4 spot).
You cannot make up your mind before the game what the allocation is, like you can pre-decide innings in a baseball game. You watch the game, its flow, who's hot, who's playing defense, etc... and it is easy to short-change or "forget" players in the heat of battle. That's just the way it is. It is always EASY to second-guess yourself AFTER the game. God knows I did it hundreds of times.
Having said that ... I think all six (6) should play every game, including Thiero. He's earned it on the floor.
| Season | Player | PPG | ATT / MIN |
| 16-17 | Fox | 16.69 | 0.421 |
| 10-11 | Knight | 17.29 | 0.376 |
| 21-22 | Washington | 12.52 | 0.372 |
| 15-16 | Ulis | 17.31 | 0.343 |
| 12-13 | Goodwin | 14.12 | 0.341 |
| 09-10 | Wall | 16.65 | 0.340 |
| 12-13 | Harrow | 9.90 | 0.338 |
| 19-20 | Maxey | 13.97 | 0.329 |
| 20-21 | Mintz | 11.52 | 0.315 |
| 18-19 | Green | 8.00 | 0.306 |
| 17-18 | Gilg-Alex | 14.38 | 0.302 |
| 17-18 | Green | 9.26 | 0.296 |
| 22-23 | Wallace | 10.94 | 0.293 |
| 21-22 | Mintz | 8.48 | 0.293 |
| 21-22 | Wheeler | 10.07 | 0.290 |
| 22-23 | Wheeler | 9.53 | 0.280 |
| 11-12 | Teague | 10.03 | 0.270 |
| 14-15 | Harrison | 9.33 | 0.269 |
| 19-20 | Hagans | 11.50 | 0.266 |
| 13-14 | Harrison | 10.85 | 0.260 |
| 18-19 | Hagans | 7.68 | 0.203 |
| 20-21 | Askew | 6.52 | 0.197 |
| 14-15 | Ulis | 5.65 | 0.187 |
Last edited:
I imagine we've had more practice on free throws, really was a needed thing to win that game.
Made the biggest difference between a win and a loss.
Made the biggest difference between a win and a loss.
Play the guys that are going to stick their nose in there and fight like hell. That means Collins has to sit.I love Thiero and you are 100% spot-on. He consistently plays hard and I think he deserves more minutes.
I coached for over twenty (20) years, not at any highly-competitive level, but I always thought the distribution of playing time was about the most difficult decision a coach has to make. You want to give your team the best chance to win and be totally fair to each player at the same time. Not easy. Allocating minutes in game situations is much like a baseball coach trying to decide whether to leave a pitcher in, or not. Tough calls ...
Here is how I see it: You have 120 minutes to spread at the PG, SG & SF positions among the following:
Wheeler, Wallace, Fredrick, Reeves, Thiero and Livingston (assuming Livingston does not play the 4 spot).
You cannot make up your mind before the game what the allocation is, like you can pre-decide innings in a baseball game. You watch the game, its flow, who's hot, who's playing defense, etc... and it is easy to short-change or "forget" players in the heat of battle. That's just the way it is. It is always EASY to second-guess yourself AFTER the game. God knows I did it hundreds of times.
Having said that ... I think all six (6) should play every game, including Thiero. He's earned it on the floor.
Rotate Livingston and Thiero at the 4, they're both tough and they both make things happen.
Cal's rotations make absolutely no sense. He’s all over the place and now, the spotlight is on him and not just from the fans. The national media watches UK like a hawk and they are all fully aware of what the efficiency numbers show, so if Cal comes out tomorrow night with Wheeler and Collins in the starting lineup, Cal should get hammered by everyone.
Collins does not deserve to be on the court, he’s soft as hell, yet he's getting a ton of minutes, while Adou sits and gets nothing.
The bottom line is, every year, Cal has 2 or three players that he is loyal to and it has cost us many losses.
The proof is right there, we lose too many games with Wheeler driving the bus. Wallace creates many problems for opposing teams, UT was highly bothered by his size as well as Reeves' size.
I think some fans get stuck on the positive things Wheeler does, but they're not seeing what's happening when he's not scoring. It’s not good.
I understand your point to an extent. It is made here quite often, but I'm still not sure the wings have been anywhere near as aggressive going to the rim, trying to score and/or get to the line. Wheeler's man sagging is not the primary reason for this. What I see is the wings always throwing the damn ball back to Wheeler instead of being aggressive. If they change that mindset, we will be better and Wheeler's attempts, especially late in the shot clock, will be significantly reduced, if not eliminated. I would like to see a tweak where Wheeler throws it to the wings and he sets a screen or pick to initiate more movement of others with the ball. Hell, I would like to see a simple tweak, where everyone throws a pass to others and immediate goes to screen for them. We just need the wings to be active and aggressive, like they were against the VOLS. I may be wrong, but I contend that Wheeler wants assists, not points, and sees that as his role. GO CATS !!
Last edited:
You cannot take away the block unless you front a player. You cannot front Plavsic because they will throw over the top, if Oscar is guarding him, not to mention giving up rebounding position.
Doubling down is certainly an option, but you will probably be giving up tighter three-point defense. Our match-up options against a quality big man are a problem, unfortunately.
Absolutely. UK has better than average ball handlers at virtually every position. I like seeing Toppin initiate the offense out front, as well as Reeves. Livingston has a good handle for a big guy and can finish at the rim. There were a couple times our forwards got the board and just sprinted downcourt on the dribble and put pressure on the defense. The best teams always are versatile and aren't just standing around waiting for one guy to initiate the offense every single time down the floor. If you have a truly elite PG I suppose you can win with him dominating the ball....but we don't have that guy.
Newsflash:
Wallace is an elite defender and lottery pick NBA Pro
Wheeler is a 5’8” Turnover machine who can’t hit a FT. He will never play a minute of pro ball
Wallace isn’t healthy and it’s shown the past couple games. He was lights out before he hurt his back.
With Wallace in the game, UT had to defend him which opened the court for our offense to operate. With wheeler in the game,, the defense plays 5 on 4 and dares Wheeler to shoot. With the defense packed in to stop Wheeler’s drives, it affects our offense
This is true. Isn't it amazing how quickly Wheeler is criticized but not a word can be said about Wallace? The group think here is this: Wallace is great. Wheeler is awful. Slam Wheeler and get cheers. Say one word about Wallace and you're a loon.
But here, let me say both good and bad about Wallace...
I applaud him for playing in that game with his obvious pain. I was hurting watching him try to move around.
But, the negative. He was terrible initiating the offense. He turned it over, yes a couple lame calls there, but he struggled running the offense so badly that Cal put Thiero at the point. What more needs to be said? And Thiero was better than Wallace, although he struggled as well.
But folks can't even admit that Wheeler certainly would have done better at initiating the offense. Can't say it. I have to laugh. If you say the name Wheeler, your next word must be "sucks" or "benched" or "not even UK caliber." These are the accepted talking points. Don't break the norm! It doesn't matter what the numbers say if your eyes tell you he sucks.
Here's the reason we think Wheeler sucks. I had an epiphany of sorts earlier while replying to someone. Wheeler's biggest problem is that when he is forced to step up and try to force plays, force shots, or do something to save the team, it means the team is losing. So, when Wheeler is the 2nd leading scorer behind Oscar, as he was against St Peter's, it means the supporting cast is sucking horribly. Wheeler doesn't play terribly until the rest of the guys are playing terribly and he thinks he has to try to win by himself. And he usually finishes what they started, while trying to do too much, he blows it. He turns it over. He takes bad shots.
It's the same thing when Wheeler ENDS UP with the ball at the end of shot clocks. Why has that happen SOOO much this season? Because all season the entire team has refused to make a play, to take a shot, or to take the chance at failing. They've deferred to Wheeler again and again, so who takes the shot? Wheeler. Who gets blamed for the bad play? Wheeler. He's holding the ball at the end of every loss. That's how it works.
But what did we see against Tennessee? (It actually started in the 2nd half of SC but the Gamecocks kept making shots out their butts and it was too little too late.) Something changed with Fredrick and Reeves. They were hunting shots. They were aggressively cutting and going around screens. They and others were taking the ball at Tennessee and forcing them to foul. They were taking contact and going through it. And then they made free throws. They stopped fading away, shying from contact, backing off, and deferring. That is what I saw.
So, my bottom line: I think Wheeler can play and win when he's not trying to do what he doesn't do well. He doesn't need to look to score. He doesn't need to try to force plays that aren't there. He needs to initiate the offense, drive the ball, and make good passes to open guys. When he plays to his strengths, he is very good. When he plays outside his strengths, we lose.
This is just full of BS. Get it you don’t like Wheeler but saying what he’d have done in this game had he played is just agenda nonsense.
If I was a mod I might give you a timeout.
For what it's worth, and it's worth nothing here. Wheeler's assist to turnover ratio is 2nd only to Tyler Ulis in UK HISTORY. His assists per game are 2nd only to Ulis, also. He clearly does something well. I posted why I think Wheeler gets such a raw deal in another thread. I doubt anyone will read it.
Season Player Minutes FG% 3PT% FT% Assists A / Min TO TO / MIN A/TO PPG 09-10 Wall 1288 46.12% 32.46% 241 0.187 149 0.116 1.62 16.65 10-11 Knight 1363 42.30% 37.66% 159 0.117 120 0.088 1.33 17.29 11-12 Teague 1303 41.19% 32.50% 191 0.147 109 0.084 1.75 10.03 12-13 Harrow 787 41.35% 29.58% 82 0.104 48 0.061 1.71 9.90 12-13 Goodwin 1048 43.98% 26.56% 88 0.084 101 0.096 0.87 14.12 13-14 Harrison 1267 36.67% 35.11% 159 0.126 109 0.086 1.46 10.85 14-15 Harrison 994 37.83% 38.30% 139 0.140 64 0.064 2.17 9.33 14-15 Ulis 882 40.61% 42.86% 135 0.153 38 0.043 3.55 5.65 15-16 Ulis 1287 43.44% 34.38% 246 0.191 69 0.054 3.57 17.31 16-17 Fox 1064 47.77% 24.64% 165 0.155 87 0.082 1.90 16.69 17-18 Gilg-Alex 1248 48.54% 40.35% 189 0.151 99 0.079 1.91 14.38 17-18 Green 869 45.14% 37.61% 91 0.105 55 0.063 1.65 9.26 18-19 Green 160 44.90% 42.31% 21 0.131 21 0.131 1.00 8.00 18-19 Hagans 1054 46.73% 27.45% 160 0.152 94 0.089 1.70 7.68 19-20 Hagans 996 40.38% 25.81% 191 0.192 103 0.103 1.85 11.50 19-20 Maxey 1068 42.74% 29.20% 98 0.092 67 0.063 1.46 13.97 20-21 Askew 722 34.51% 27.78% 73 0.101 50 0.069 1.46 6.52 20-21 Mintz 769 39.67% 38.10% 77 0.100 47 0.061 1.64 11.52 21-22 Mintz 768 38.22% 34.38% 55 0.072 31 0.040 1.77 8.48 21-22 Wheeler 937 44.12% 30.77% 207 0.221 91 0.097 2.27 10.07 21-22 Washington 906 45.10% 34.95% 120 0.133 51 0.056 2.35 12.52 22-23 Wheeler 483 41.48% 38.46% 95 0.197 33 0.068 2.88 9.53 22-23 Wallace 518 46.05% 41.33% 65 0.126 30 0.058 2.17 10.94 Sahvir Wheeler College Stats | College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com
Sahvir Wheeler - Stats, Game Logs, Splits, and much more
John Wall was helluva player, obviously, and played with far more talent than most here (especially Wheeler), but ... you have to be honest about it ... he was very turnover-prone, if you want to talk turnovers. Wheeler's TO-rate has been much-improved since coming to Kentucky. fwiw ...
Career High Assists
www.bigbluehistory.net
I'll try to sum it up. When Wheeler plays poorly, it's because the team is losing. When his supporting cast plays well, he plays well. When they aren't making shots or plays, he feels he must carry the offense too. So, he forces things and takes bad shots.
Here's the truth: Wheeler is one of the only guys on the team who can create his own shot. So, when all else fails, Wheeler has to create something, and it's often not a good look. So, when we lose, the guy with the ball in his hands is Wheeler. He gets blamed. If others had made a play, he wouldn't be trying to force something. But he ends up taking the heat because he has the ball in his hands.
And most people don't think or see everything else that failed before Wheeler failed. They just see the team losing and Wheeler holding the ball. That's it. When the team does well and is winning, Wheeler isn't holding the ball or making the play. He doesn't have to. Others made the play, he often got the assist, but people see the guy who made the play. They don't see Wheeler when we're winning. But when we're losing, you always see Wheeler because he's feeling he must win the game and make every play since the others are playing terribly. So, almost every time Wheeler is in the limelight, the team is losing. And usually, if the rest of the team is sucking, Wheeler has no chance to carry them to a victory. So, Wheeler's a loser with most. They only associate him with losing. That's why so many see him as they do, despite what the numbers say.
Such nonsense. UT pressured Wallace just over the midline and he struggled to get the Cats offense started. Looked to be less than 100% but still just more agenda posting against Wheeler.
Cats don’t have a top flight pg on the roster.
Wallace is not a lottery pick pro based on performance, maybe on potential
That’s a pretty good comparison. It’s gonna be interesting to see how he grows because they say he could end up 6-10” or more. Theiro is a sleeper and the reason he isn’t in game shape is because cal failed to play him in many cupcake games. Now the season is on the line he gets minutes. That pre conference schedule was invaluable and cal squandered it.
Guess I should stop watching the game with the volume all the way down 😂
Tyty and Grady created so much recovery by the defense last year. If he really stuck with Reeves and Reeves showed discipline on shot selection he could be similar to Grady in demanding attention. What we really miss and is not on this team is a secondary player that can attack on multiple levels like Tyty. You are right, the defense is not moving and he is playing hero ball. One easy small fix would be to get the ball to Reeves late in the clock and let him work.
A pet peeve of mine has always been fans talking about player's HS ranking and their draft projection. The only thing that really matters is what they are doing in the present and near term potential. Rankings can be wrong and a lot of drafting is guesswork at their ceiling.
This, exacty this right here. I guess some people need to see more losses to bad teams before they see it.
Wheeler is a net negative player. The defense is at a disadvantage when he's in, because he can’t guard anybody and the offense plays 4 on 5, with his defender helping off, which stymies everything we're trying to do.
Then, he misses free throws
Then, he gets scored on
Then, he throws the ball away.
And the circle continues.
Similar threads
