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Help me understand why Louisville has a better football program than UK

No worries, just wanted to clarify.

Barnhart is the reason I haven't spoken out about getting rid of Stoops this year. First you have the ridiculous buyout UK would have to pay because of him. Then you have to contend with Barnhart doing the actual hiring. For my money Barnhart is more detrimental to the football program than Stoops could ever be.
I agree 110%... Letting MB play around at football is nuts... But someone saw fit to raise him and extend his contract......
 
What surprises me about the responses to this post is that the only assertion referenced in my original post that is somewhat disputed is the representation I made that UK has better football facilities than UL. No other representation about the qualities UK has which UL has the lesser of have been controverted. Still, I am surprised to see where a significant number of people believe UL has better facilities particularly in light of our $110 million football facility upgrade. I was not aware UL had superior football facilities, (if they do)
First of all, congrats for starting one of the more interesting discussions on the board. Regarding just the question of football facilities, IMO, there are fundamentally 3 only pieces of football infrastructure, stadium or playing venue, indoor facility and training facility.

Stadium: The renovations to CWS basically only "caught up" with what had been in place at PJCS since it was built. I still think the renovation unnecessarily cost too many seats. Not that it really matters, the planned expansion to PJCS will "move it ahead" of CWS (whatever that means).

Indoor Facility: Nutter Fieldhouse is impressive due to its size (i.e., full indoor track facilities). Trager is "smaller" but from a football only perspective totally equal to Nutter.

Training Facility: UK clearly has the lead here with the new facility. Schnellenberger complex will be expanded as part of forthcoming PJCS expansion. It will still not be as large as UK's new facility but will more than meet the criteria of a first rate training facility.

Peace
 
First of all, congrats for starting one of the more interesting discussions on the board. Regarding just the question of football facilities, IMO, there are fundamentally 3 only pieces of football infrastructure, stadium or playing venue, indoor facility and training facility.

Stadium: The renovations to CWS basically only "caught up" with what had been in place at PJCS since it was built. I still think the renovation unnecessarily cost too many seats. Not that it really matters, the planned expansion to PJCS will "move it ahead" of CWS (whatever that means).

Indoor Facility: Nutter Fieldhouse is impressive due to its size (i.e., full indoor track facilities). Trager is "smaller" but from a football only perspective totally equal to Nutter.

Training Facility: UK clearly has the lead here with the new facility. Schnellenberger complex will be expanded as part of forthcoming PJCS expansion. It will still not be as large as UK's new facility but will more than meet the criteria of a first rate training facility.

Peace
Great post. PJCS is still ahead of Commonwealth although they seemed to do some nice things to Commonwealth. But the Flight Deck, the Loge Seating, the Party Deck, and the upcoming expansion has and will keep PJCS ahead of Commonwealth.

As for the indoor facilities you are probably right. UK probably has a slight edge right now. But don't expect that to last for long. Tom always is looking to make things bigger and better. As part of the stadium renovation, I have little to no doubt that the facilities will be upgraded along with this project.
 
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A lengthy dissertation you just posted, to which I retort with two words, Katrina, and hos.

Your program is the scum of the earth.
No offense intended but your reply is exactly why uk finds themselves where they currently are. The bottom, looking up at "Little Brother". Here's to hoping that mindset changes because it is better for the rivalry as well as football overall in the state of Ky.
 
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No offense intended but your reply is exactly why uk finds themselves where they currently are. The bottom, looking up at "Little Brother". Here's to hoping that mindset changes because it is better for the rivalry as well as football overall in the state of Ky.
No offense taken. My retort is this- regardless of what Louisville does in football, Louisville is still ultimately a basketball school, just like UK is. I personally care infinitely more about football, but any objective analysis of UK vs. Louisville starts and ends with basketball. Enjoy your football dominance for as long as it lasts, which hopefully won't be too long, but know this- we are still the top in that sport that is nearest and dearest to the hearts of the majority of both of our fanbases. I couldn't even try to say this to any fan of any other SEC program, because they give a flying F about basketball, but I can say it to a Louisville fan. You guys are still looking up at us in what is important to the respective base.
 
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I am seeing a change in the fanbase. While that may have been true for many years I dont think it will be in the future. The fans I am close with have always been infatuated wth football first. My step son was always football first. From the day I met his mother (Schnelly days). If they continue their trajectory I believe you see many. many more football first people. I know many on both sides of the rivalry that watch basketball like they are in church but you turn on football and they are raving lunatics Let us step up our game and beat them a time or two when it matters and watch how football grabs the heart of the younger crowd. For instance let an average UK team knock off a UL playoff bound 11-0 team this year (any year) and watch new football first fans birthed before your eyes,lol.
 
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If UK basketball were to play in a 60K venue how many season tickets would they sell?
Not as many as even a half decent football team... The reason being football (and soccer/rugby) is a large venue sport and basketball is a court sport... It could happen that UK doesn't place any more fans in Commonwealth than Rupp. That would be a terrible loss of potential income stream....

UofL has made an effort, over years, to avoid the empty stadium scenario and UK seems to be moving full tilt towards it.

The FAN was always one of the most reliable and best assets to the football program and it has been the victim of poor stewardship... A season ticket buyer lost makes it much much more difficult to get a season ticket buyer back... And this is my beef with Barney... Regardless of his hires and other BS ........ He just don't seem to get it, on the people end either.

UK has serious issues... OMHO.
 
3. Win at all costs. Maybe the most important factor. I cannot stress how much of a once-in-a-lifetime chance getting Petrino was. Jurich doesn't give a damn about reputation, he cares about wins - and for good reason. He knows that news cycles are short and everyone will forget once the wins come pouring in (look at any crime committed by a major athlete, look at scandals at other schools, etc. etc.).

Amid a sea of whining about Barnhart, there are some good posts here. The NYTimes article that Jason linked up top is a good place to start, and CardHack's post is truth. But I want to focus on this blurb by VandyCrush - it's true too (especially the part about the news cycle, which I've said repeatedly).

And it leads to a question: do you want to cheer for a school that has a win at all costs approach? Where is our Willie Williams or Michael Dyar or Fields? Where is the coach we've hired that caused ESPN to say our AD is a "shameless joke that only cares about winning" as it did when Jurich hired BP this last time? We don't do that - does it matter to you, at all? News cycles move on, so no one is still saying Jurich is a joke for hiring Petrino - but it's still there. It doesn't disappear just because no one says it. Does that matter?

The short of it is this: both schools faced extreme uphill battles. Louisville was an urban school with very limited resources that no one thought twice about re football. UK was the SEC's doormat. And Louisville, with some vision and hard work has overcome it's obstacle; UK has not.

I'm not going to get into a defense of Barnhart - I have no faith in his ability to identify and land "the right football coach". But you guys saying he's a joke or a moron or a horrible AD are missing the point. I know how everyone wants to vent, especially with the rival at #3. Barnhart just got some AD of the year award less than a year ago; yesterday, another of his assistants got another big time AD job. His "coaching tree" has to be about the best in the country: Byrne to Miss State then Arizona; Coyle to Boise State then Syracuse now Minnesota; Stricklin to Miss State now Florida; and the guy at Oregon, name escapes me. That's just off the top of my head. If he weren't respected, other schools wouldn't be raiding his assistants. But failing to do something that is really hard, that no one else has been able to do in 4 generations, doesn't make someone an idiot. He's not going anywhere, and I fear his experience with Morriss is one he'll remember. Barnhart came here as a "football guy", and I know he walked in the door thinking he was going to do here what he did at Oregon State (take them to first BCS bowl in 2 years). Guy Morriss wasn't good enough, and he had no doubt he'd be able to find and hire a great coach. So he lets Morriss walk - and that's when he found out no one wanted the UK job. He almost had Parcells - that would have been a disaster anyway, but at least he was thinking big. But now he's scarred by that experience. No one wants this job because it's viewed as a graveyard job. And as long as he's making the hiring decision, I'm not sure we shouldn't just hang on to Stoops.
 
I am seeing a change in the fanbase. While that may have been true for many years I dont think it will be in the future. The fans I am close with have always been infatuated wth football first. My step son was always football first. From the day I met his mother (Schnelly days). If they continue their trajectory I believe you see many. many more football first people. I know many on both sides of the rivalry that watch basketball like they are in church but you turn on football and they are raving lunatics Let us step up our game and beat them a time or two when it matters and watch how football grabs the heart of the younger crowd. For instance let an average UK team knock off a UL playoff bound 11-0 team this year (any year) and watch new football first fans birthed before your eyes,lol.
I am too but not as you describe. I go back to the Stoll Field days and have sometimes referred to what I called The Stoll Field Faithful...some 25,000 - 30,000 fans that were there come Hell or high water. That bunch has either passed away or, like myself, getting pretty old.

Now today's numbers across the board are larger but today's fans seem (for better or for worse) much less "tolerant" of mediocre football. This was evidenced in the steady decline of season ticket sales during the Joker era and a very slow "bounce back" under CMS. All JMO.

Peace
 
...but today's fans seem (for better or for worse) much less "tolerant" of mediocre football. This was evidenced in the steady decline of season ticket sales during the Joker era and a very slow "bounce back" under CMS. All JMO.

Peace
speaks to the change in culture I've mentioned here before:

1. People in the 21st century - not just UK fans, but everyone everywhere - are just busier. Life is more hectic, better or worse.
2. Technology - how many fans have a big screen now? Seemingly everyone can just walk into the living room or basement and there is a 70 inch screen in hi def. Wasn't the case even 10 years ago.

the combination of those two things is going to have a serious impact on attendance at CWS - which has historically has mediocre football at best and also draws fans from across the state. Contrast that with UofL, you're not expecting people to drive much further than somewhere inside the Gene Snyder. Why drive to Lexington and spend all day, when I can watch it in hi def downstairs?

Layer on top of that the football specific thing (less tolerance for mediocrity) you mention, fueled in large part by UofL's ascendancy....and what you get is what you got. Bottom line: Kentucky is playing with fire here, and there's a chance they lose part of the football fan base for good.
 
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speaks to the change in culture I've mentioned here before:

1. People in the 21st century - not just UK fans, but everyone everywhere - are just busier. Life is more hectic, better or worse.
2. Technology - how many fans have a big screen now? Seemingly everyone can just walk into the living room or basement and there is a 70 inch screen in hi def. Wasn't the case even 10 years ago.

the combination of those two things is going to have a serious impact on attendance at CWS - which has historically has mediocre football at best and also draws fans from across the state. Contrast that with UofL, you're not expecting people to drive much further than somewhere inside the Gene Snyder. Why drive to Lexington and spend all day, when I can watch it in hi def downstairs?

Layer on top of that the football specific thing (less tolerance for mediocrity) you mention, fueled in large part by UofL's ascendancy....and what you get is what you got. Bottom line: Kentucky is playing with fire here, and there's a chance they lose part of the football fan base for good.

As a Louisville fan, that does not live in Louisville, I live about 45 minutes away on the outskirts of the city on a farm. I have the big screen, Hi-Def TV for the road games. But nothing comes close to game day in the stadium. NOTHING. I plan my life around the games in the fall. I have kids that play football at different levels and it cuts into tailgating some. But, I am not missing a home game in Cardinal Stadium. Now I know some of the BBN might not live within an hour of CWS, but if football is your passion, then you will. I would. Plus, I have to think that uk has more than enough fans within a 2 hour drive to CWS to fill it up. When you guys have been decent, that place is packed. You just need a winner and the fans will come and they will come in insane numbers. BBN has 2 things that they can boast more of than just about anyone. Passion and numbers. You all need an AD that can change the narrative on uk football. It will be a long slow process. Hell, it might have already started, IDK. But your sleeping giant mantra is true, but there is no quick fix. It will take more than one coach. Louisville started off with a vision from Howard Schnellanburger(SP?). Maybe Mitch has your vision, maybe Stoops. If not, find the man who does and then BBN needs to rally around that vision for a few decades and keep pushing and fighting. Its a tough road, but well worth it.
 
As a Louisville fan, that does not live in Louisville, I live about 45 minutes away on the outskirts of the city on a farm. I have the big screen, Hi-Def TV for the road games. But nothing comes close to game day in the stadium. NOTHING. I plan my life around the games in the fall. I have kids that play football at different levels and it cuts into tailgating some. But, I am not missing a home game in Cardinal Stadium. Now I know some of the BBN might not live within an hour of CWS, but if football is your passion, then you will. I would. Plus, I have to think that uk has more than enough fans within a 2 hour drive to CWS to fill it up. When you guys have been decent, that place is packed. You just need a winner and the fans will come and they will come in insane numbers. BBN has 2 things that they can boast more of than just about anyone. Passion and numbers. You all need an AD that can change the narrative on uk football. It will be a long slow process. Hell, it might have already started, IDK. But your sleeping giant mantra is true, but there is no quick fix. It will take more than one coach. Louisville started off with a vision from Howard Schnellanburger(SP?). Maybe Mitch has your vision, maybe Stoops. If not, find the man who does and then BBN needs to rally around that vision for a few decades and keep pushing and fighting. Its a tough road, but well worth it.


Naga, I can appreciate and share your passion for game day at the stadium. I wish UK had had that vision in the 80's to set a course and stick with it. Yes, maybe we are now but I can only imagine where we would be had we hired Schnellie back in the day.
 
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As a Louisville fan, that does not live in Louisville, I live about 45 minutes away on the outskirts of the city on a farm. I have the big screen, Hi-Def TV for the road games. But nothing comes close to game day in the stadium. NOTHING. I plan my life around the games in the fall. I have kids that play football at different levels and it cuts into tailgating some. But, I am not missing a home game in Cardinal Stadium. Now I know some of the BBN might not live within an hour of CWS, but if football is your passion, then you will. I would. Plus, I have to think that uk has more than enough fans within a 2 hour drive to CWS to fill it up. When you guys have been decent, that place is packed. You just need a winner and the fans will come and they will come in insane numbers. BBN has 2 things that they can boast more of than just about anyone. Passion and numbers. You all need an AD that can change the narrative on uk football. It will be a long slow process. Hell, it might have already started, IDK. But your sleeping giant mantra is true, but there is no quick fix. It will take more than one coach. Louisville started off with a vision from Howard Schnellanburger(SP?). Maybe Mitch has your vision, maybe Stoops. If not, find the man who does and then BBN needs to rally around that vision for a few decades and keep pushing and fighting. Its a tough road, but well worth it.
Goodness gracious people... And Otis fan that gets it better than our Administration does past and present... build it and we will come!!!!
 
Basketball is great but football runs college athletics budgets, interest, etc.. If America had to dispose of one or the other, basketball would go
 
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I just watched Petrino being interviewed on Sports Center before Louisville's game with Clemson today. I have to admit watching it made me jealous as hell as a UK fan because he was talking about winning the national championship, having his teams play fast on offense, yada yada yada. I just shook my head in disbelief at what I was watching. I will never understand their rise to success but I have no choice but to acknowledge its existence. Additionally, as much as I want Louisville to lose every game I have to concede that they are a fun team to watch.
 
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I just watched Petrino being interviewed on Sports Center before Louisville's game with Clemson today. I have to admit watching it made me jealous as hell as a UK fan because he was talking about winning the national championship, having his teams play fast on offense, yada yada yada. I just shook my head in disbelief at what I was watching. I will never understand their rise to success but I have no choice but to acknowledge its existence. Additionally, as much as I want to Louisville to lose every game I have to concede that they are a fun team to watch.
maybe if they win a NC it will finally get the admins and boosters attention in lex.
 
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maybe if they win a NC it will finally get the admins and boosters attention in lex.
I am as big a UK fan as anyone on this board .

However, our major problem facing MB is football is pure and simply entertainment. And it is much more entertaining to stay home and cheer against UL on TV than it us to spend the day in Lexington watching mediocre football.

If it were not for HDTV and UL 's success MB could get away with giving us a third rate football program. I believe the decline in Season ticket sales next year will make the Jokery years pale in comparison.

Basically there is no valid reason other than leadership to explain why two schools in the same state eighty miles apart see one succeed and the other fail.
 
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Kentucky has every advantage over Louisville, but it is not nearly enough to compensate for the advantage they have in Athletic Director and head coach. There is no comparison. This reflects the commitment to win in football at Louisville and the lack of same at UK. The UK school president and BOT have failed the fans of Kentucky football and until that changes we will remain Louisville's Bitch in football. I for one am sick and tired of being the subject of jokes by national college football analysts.
 
If you want another example of an AD turning a blind eye for the sake of wins just look at Florida football under Urban Meyer: it was basically a crime syndicate. Players were getting in trouble all the time and while Tebow was the headline grabber a significant portion of players on that team were scum of the earth win at all costs type. Meyer likely saw the writing on the wall and abandoned ship before the football program turned into what Baylor was in recent years. 'Health incident' my ass. Now Urban Meyer is likely the most respected coach in the profession outside of Saban. Wins fix (almost) everything.


Lucky for UK we are about to see quite a coaching carousel this offseason. Les Miles is available. Good chance Brian Kelly and Charlie Strong will be in a few months as well. If I am UK I am doing whatever I can to bring one of those guys in (ideally Miles). I was reading through a thread on the front page about fans not wanting Les which I think is nuts. He could put Kentucky at the top of the SEC East in a short period of time.
 
We can get into all the little details and history, but it comes down to one thing.

The leadership and fans at UofL WILL NOT TOLERATE losing.

The leadership and fans at UK will...
100% fact. I have using basketball as the example on here but being that's what stirs the pot it's actually the most pertinent example. Mitch was prepared to extend Gillispie and force the fans to stay the course had it not been for his public behavior and total lack of ability to cover up all the extracurricular shenanigans. If he had won they would have found an excuse to sweep that crap under the rug. But because he didn't win, acted like a jackass publicly and privately, and put Mitch's job on the line if he didn't do something, he was fired.

The problem with guys like Joker and Stoops is they're great guys off the field but don't take care of business on it. Thus far Stoops has been akin to Kragthorpe yet were called microwave fans and to stay the course. James Franklin won 6 flipping games his first season at Vanderbilt and 9 each of the next two before getting the Penn State job. You can either coach or you can't. Coaches who will pan out do not choke away leads of 35-10 and 21-0, nor do they take EKU to OT and lose to WKU.
 
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...Mitch was prepared to extend Gillispie...
Point 1, that's horse manure. At no point was Barnhart ever "prepared to extend Gillispie."

Point 2, if Louisville people won't tolerate losing, how to explain they were horrible for a century?
 
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I just watched Petrino being interviewed on Sports Center before Louisville's game with Clemson today. I have to admit watching it made me jealous as hell as a UK fan because he was talking about winning the national championship, having his teams play fast on offense, yada yada yada. I just shook my head in disbelief at what I was watching. I will never understand their rise to success but I have no choice but to acknowledge its existence. Additionally, as much as I want Louisville to lose every game I have to concede that they are a fun team to watch.
The method Louisville used is the same method we made fun of. Louisville played games on Friday nights, Thursday nights, Wednesday night. They were able to grab a national audience since those games were on ESPN.
At the very least, the high school players that were fringe 3/4 stars could see themselves on tv, rather than getting lost in the shuffle of 50 other Saturday games.
Then they started winning those games and getting to low bowls. Going from no bowl to low bowl, then low bowl to BCS bowls, and now thoughts of the championship.
We need to decide if we want to be significant in football and then make it happen.
Watching the Georgia-Tennessee game, they just showed the East standings. The announcers mentioned Florida, Georgia, Tennessee and then said and the rest.
 
While I agree with the comments regarding coaches, AD, athletic leadership I want to add one other reason...Howard Schnellenberger.

If you did not follow UofL football before 1985 I simply cannot describe to you how bad was the program. Complete apathy from the fans, the community and the University. Somehow, someway, Schnellenberger changed all that. He made the team, the fans, the university and the community actually believe UofL could have a winning football program. I had the opportunity to meet with him on several occasions and I can tell you the guy was larger than life. He was much more than a successful coach; he was a galvanizing figure. UK football has not had such a figure since the Bear.

Furthermore, with Tom Jurich UofL has been fortunate enough to have a second great leader who fully embraced Howard's bravado and continued Howard's "vision". I know many here like to criticize him but his record of accomplishments for UofL athletics totally speaks for itself.

Lastly, I will point out that there is now a culture of "winning football" at UofL. In it's own way the rapid recovery from a couple of "bad" coaches says as much as does the success of some of the best team. This did not happen overnight. It has taken 30 years of steadily building the program and raising the expectations from what Howard started. All, of course, JMO.

Peace

I wonder if this impression of Jurich and a winning culture remains with our regular Card poster.

I revisit old impressions of Jurich, because Bob Valvano admitted this week that the media was afraid under Jurich and Petrino to criticize for fear of certain retribution. I remember UK fans posting that TJ had the media afraid, but most UL fans defended him.

That seems to have changed with regard to BP and TJ.

In short, when it comes to Card radio, you cannot believe the spin.
 
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When Redman leaves they're screwed.
When Ragone leaves they'll suck.
Without Lefors they're gonna suck
Brohm is the only reason that they are good.
Wait until Bridgewater goes, they will suck.
They're only good because of Jackson.

I see a strong pattern here.

And ... pattern snapped.
 
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If UK wants to get serious about football, they need to hire this generation's Howard Schnellenberger, then give him everything he needs to get the program going in the right direction. Plan on it being a ten year process. Schnellenberger went 2-9, 3-8, 3-7-1, 8-3, 6-5, 10-1-1, 2-9, 5-6, 9-3 and 6-5 at Louisville - not even a winning overall record, but it did not matter because Schnellenberger had won a national championship at Miami and before that had won two Super Bowls with the Miami Dolphins - so UofL knew that the foundation was being laid the right way. A huge part of the foundation is that the coach have a great reputation in a part of the country that has great high school football. You cannot win without great players.

Once the foundation is laid, you then ALWAYS hire coaches who follow the same philosophy and whose strengths are in recruiting the same areas of the country. UofL failed to do this twice, once in 1995 when we hired Ron Cooper, and once again in 2007 when we hired Steve Kragthorpe. The results were disastrous, and the AD's we had at the time corrected that mistake after three years each time by firing Cooper and Kragthorpe and hiring coaches with recruiting ties to Florida (although John L. Smith was primarily a product of western football, he was a disciple of Dennis Erickson, who also won two national championships at Miami).

Do you think that 2-10, 5-7, 5-7, 7-5, 7-5 and 9-3 is a good start to hiring someone like Howard?
 
The perpetually negative can be found in this old thread. Many continue to be negative now that UL has had a collapsed and UK has ended 9-3. Ask yourself why some posters here lean into negative perspectives regardless of the situation. The answer is relatively simple.
 

Wonder why?

It’s amazing how perfectly the opinions in the thread came essentially from September 22 until early October, 2016, damn near the exact tipping point in time where Louisville first fell from Grace, to earth, and then into hell, itself.

Some gems: a Cat fan alluded to the rumor of a Stoops moral failure that briefly made the rounds, here, juuuust before the S. Carolina win.

WildCard references the stadium expansion, that then fell short of exceeding Commonwealth’s capacity, as fans and donors had been promised.

Folks repeatedly saying that without Lamar Jackson, Louisville would at best only win 9, which is the most they won with him.

Look back upon this thread objectively: it is remarkable to see the degree of both the rapidity and the depths to which the Jurich and Petrino/Petino and U of L mantras have fallen.

Visit their boards and they bemoan being taken over by what they describe as a UK board and AD.

In the 26 months since this thread, they’ve had an operating loss of over half-a-billion dollars, suspension of academic credentials, loss of a banner, exposure of a basketball scandal that might be larger than the Katrina Powell scandal, dropping enrollments, dropping donations, the loss of affiliation with the medical establishment which threatens the loss of 10’s of millions more in revenue, the loss of millions of sports advertising revenue with the Papa John’s scandal, and the broad exposure of a systemic scheme of vast overpayment of University insiders, leading to an IRS audit that could lead to millions in further losses.

And that list is not exhaustive.

If I were a fan of that University, I would stop bemoaning the loss of “games,” and begin questioning the social, political and cultural flaws that led to the most stunning and broad-based collapse of an American University system ever witnessed.
 
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I just watched Petrino being interviewed on Sports Center before Louisville's game with Clemson today. I have to admit watching it made me jealous as hell as a UK fan because he was talking about winning the national championship, having his teams play fast on offense, yada yada yada. I just shook my head in disbelief at what I was watching. I will never understand their rise to success but I have no choice but to acknowledge its existence. Additionally, as much as I want Louisville to lose every game I have to concede that they are a fun team to watch.
Yup 2-10 was a real hoot to watch this year
 
Tom Jurich is the answer. Comparing him and Barnhart is like comparing Mark Stoops to Nick Saban. He's worlds ahead of Mitch. If Jurich was at UK, we would be a force to reckon with. Can you imagine how far ahead Louisville would be if it wasn't for Cal?I'm damn tired of Mitch " no vision" Barnhart
Tom did have a vision. It involved pole dancers and as Kerry Rhodes says whoors
 
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