Has U of L Lost/Downgraded Defensive Talent?

[The-Hack]

On another thread, Ville '77 had the following quote responding to the loss of Strong's defensive players:

2. You guys have played the Strongs defensive players too long. Most of Strongs players were gone before last season. Petrino has actually had higher ranked classes than most of Strongs.

Looking back on the Rivals recruiting, I was surprised how little widely recognized defensive talent Bobby Petrino has recruited the last 3 or 4 seasons.

Louisville's 2011 class had four 4 stars, two on defense. (I assume they are all gone)

Their 2012 class three 4 stars, with all three on defense (Keith Brown, Nick Dawson and Gerod Hamilton).

The 2013 class two 4 stars, with one on defense . . . . James Hearns.

The 2014 class, had no Rivals 4 stars.

The 2015 class had three 4 stars, with one on defense, Devonte Fields, at Defensive End.

The 2016 class had three 4 stars, none on defense.

And the 2017 class had six 4 star players, with none listed as defensive players.

I don't know enough about Louisville's roster to directly refute Ville 77's argument, that most of Charlie's top defensive talent did not play in the '16 game.

But we can say for certain that Louisville in 2017 will have on defense only one or two highly recruited 4 star rivals players on defense.

Oddly, while Petrino's classes have marginally trended better than Charlie's (well at least 2017 did) that trend is almost entirely based on offensive talent.

 

[Kattopper]

If there is one thing Strong was/is really good at was evaulating, recruiting and developing defensive talent.

Grantham benefited from it and landed some very high ranked transfers. All of that is gone now, including Grantham. UL has had a very good defensive squad since Strong arrived. Even up until the end of last year I thought they fielded a good unit. They weren't very deep last year (again this year especially DL) and it hurt them the last half of the season.
I think there were issues between Grantham and Petrino no question. If you look at the defense it bailed out Petrino until he got Lamar rolling the last part of his freshmen year. Guess it didnt buy Grantham much leeway. Not sure if he was told to hit the road or saw an opportuntiy to seperate feom Petrino. I am sure Card fans will say they ran him off and upgraded with the new guy.

Not sure about the new coordinator. He has a small sample size but it doesn't look like a homerun hire by any means. MSU was horrible on D.

 

[jauk11]

If there is one thing Strong was/is really good at was evaulating, recruiting and developing defensive talent.

Grantham benefited from it and landed some very high ranked transfers. All of that is gone now, including Grantham. UL has had a very good defensive squad since Strong arrived. Even up until the end of last year I thought they fielded a good unit. They weren't very deep last year (again this year especially DL) and it hurt them the last half of the season.
I think there were issues between Grantham and Petrino no question. If you look at the defense it bailed out Petrino until he got Lamar rolling the last part of his freshmen year. Guess it didnt buy Grantham much leeway. Not sure if he was told to hit the road or saw an opportuntiy to seperate feom Petrino. I am sure Card fans will say they ran him off and upgraded with the new guy.

Not sure about the new coordinator. He has a small sample size but it doesn't look like a homerun hire by any means. MSU was horrible on D.

Interesting how two teams will trade DCs and both brag about what a huge upgrade it was, and really it looks like both were in line to be fired.

 

[seccats04]

The only 4 stars Petrino can recruit are QB's and WR's. Every other 4 star on their roster is a criminal transfer.

 

[jauk11]

The only 4 stars Petrino can recruit are QB's and WR's. Every other 4 star on their roster is a criminal transfer.

Well they did have the high school commit that got his 13 year old first cousin pregnant that hadn't been in jail------yet. Think his relatives didn't press charges, never heard about him after that, probably in JC waiting for the dust to settle before committing to Transfer U.

 

[tf4fun]

They may prove me wrong, but IMO there starters on defense will be good enough to win 9+ games with there schedule..
There depth in the front 7 is a big question mark! With the dline being 2 injurys away of being in bad trouble!
Lack of depth is what will cause problems for them to finish better then last year.

 

[gojvc]

If Todd Grantham hadn't thought their defense was going into the crapper due to lack of talent then he'd be there coaching it. It will take a step backward this year and will be terrible next year.

 

[seccats04]

I know their DC was terrible at MSU last year, like DJ Eliot terrible. They will have to outscore teams again this year. Strong's guys will be gone next year and they will really suck, especially on the DL, where they are loading up on Juco's this year. Juco's can be good players in time but they usually take a while to adjust. They probably won't be ready next year. Benny Snell will have a field day at the Pizza Pit.

 

[Grumpyolddawg]

If there is one thing Strong was/is really good at was evaulating, recruiting and developing defensive talent.

Grantham benefited from it and landed some very high ranked transfers. All of that is gone now, including Grantham. UL has had a very good defensive squad since Strong arrived. Even up until the end of last year I thought they fielded a good unit. They weren't very deep last year (again this year especially DL) and it hurt them the last half of the season.
I think there were issues between Grantham and Petrino no question. If you look at the defense it bailed out Petrino until he got Lamar rolling the last part of his freshmen year. Guess it didnt buy Grantham much leeway. Not sure if he was told to hit the road or saw an opportuntiy to seperate feom Petrino. I am sure Card fans will say they ran him off and upgraded with the new guy.

Not sure about the new coordinator. He has a small sample size but it doesn't look like a homerun hire by any means. MSU was horrible on D.

Grantham is one of those guys who is always looking for somewhere to go. Maybe he can't get alone with anybody, easy enough to believe, or he just doesn't want to get comfortable in one place knowing he might have to move one day. That's just the way the coaching profession is

 

[BlueRaider22]

Petr-enus is an absolute scum of a human being......but he can coach. He's never been an ace recruiter but his teams generally do very well. It would be unwise to assume that his team is not talented nor lack the ability to play.

That being said, the lack of integrity that UL (Jurich, Petr-enus, and the Crypt Keeper Pitino) have shown is just disgusting. I hope they collapse under the weight of their egos and we wax them up and down the field.

 

[Grumpyolddawg]

Petr-enus is an absolute scum of a human being......but he can coach. He's never been an ace recruiter but his teams generally do very well. It would be unwise to assume that his team is not talented nor lack the ability to play.

That being said, the lack of integrity that UL (Jurich, Petr-enus, and the Crypt Keeper Pitino) have shown is just disgusting. I hope they collapse under the weight of their egos and we wax them up and down the field.

I wonder how long before someone contacts Hugh Freeze

 

[Tcat_2]

It's hard to say, I wonder how severe the sanctions are going to be against Ole Miss?

 

[Grumpyolddawg]

It's hard to say, I wonder how severe the sanctions are going to be against Ole Miss?

I don't know, OM and Freeze lied and tried to mislead the NCAA the entire investigation. They also lied to recruits and their parents, telling them that all the serious misdeeds happened under Nutt's watch, not only Freeze and his staff, but the OM administration was involved here too. Now that probably stops at the AD but still pertty serious. Rogue boosters were providing cars, OM was paying moving expenses and utilities. I assume the houses/apartments came from one of the boosters. OM fans say it was less than 40K, maybe per year per kid, but its much more than that.

Last year we were recruiting a kid against them, He had just visited Athens and said he had one visit left to OM. During the lunch break he called our staff and said he hated the place and they were eating lunch and leaving and an OM coached walked up. Less than 30 min later he committed to OM. Richt is one of the SEC coaches who turned them in, I am guessing Saban, maybe Mullens was the other. The rest should be embarrassed for not if they knew what was going on under Freeze.

I don't think they get the death penalty, NCAA doesn't want to do that again, but I think at least 2 year bowl band and loss fo 25 scholarship over 5 years alone with 5 year probation. If you going to cheat, don't dare people to turn you in.

 

[irishcat1965]

UL fans typical response in all sports- the players replacing the previous players are much better.

 

[CardHack]

On a purely talent, credentials and professional projection level...Jaire Alexander at CB, Stacy Thomas at LB and Drew Bailey at DT are the most highly regarded players Louisville have defensively. Of those...Jaire Alexander was recruited by Petrino's staff out of Charlotte, NC after initially being a South Carolina commitment; Drew Bailey came to Louisville as a JUCO transfer with three years of eligibility and recruited by Pitino's staff; Thomas was recruited by the Charlie Strong staff and signed in Petrino's first class. I think it's very fair to ask in the cases of Thomas and Bailey in particular if their production wasn't more the byproduct of running mates Keith Kelsey--a three year starter at LB--and Deangelo Brown--a three plus year starter as DT/NT. The fourth upperclassmen who gets the most pub on Louisville defensively is DE/OLB James Hearns who I think was recruited by Charlie Strong's staff if memory serves. Hearns is unquestionably the big play guy in the front seven with 11 TFLs, 8 sacks and 5 forced fumbles but that's something of a paradox...despite the defense being statistically highly rated through October last year we got virtually nothing in pass rush outside of Hearns with the exception of the FSU game where it looked like a track meet to the QB. It seems like we went one four game stretch in the middle of ACC play without a sack.

Fair also is the question as to Louisville's front seven depth; it's the question I had going into last season. It cost us in November where I thought we were playing three DEs and Fields looked dinged from the late October on and they lost a year from Travon Young who was a great compliment to Fields as a pass rusher in 2015 before breaking his hip against Texas A&M; he returns after last year's medical redshirt year...but broken hips aren't exactly injuries renowned for improving your ability to rush a passer. Greenard as a DE had a big game against NC State when Fields got hurt on the first series of that game; but he didn't play as much late. Greenard at 6"5 is a natural three point DE; Louisville was playing more of a 3-4 where he stood up last year and would have looked like a giraffe if you dropped him in coverage. Of the two middle linebackers they took virtually every snap with Thomas returning; most believed based on HS credentials and pure alleged talent that Amonte Caban would flank Thomas but he hasn't made the field yet.

Given the nature of teams in Louisville's division--most obviously Clemson--Louisville has made a concerted effort in consecutive classes to recruit safeties and hybrid safeties. Clemson goes no huddle exclusively, Duke plays quite a bit of it and minimally spreads you out, Dino Babers at Syracuse brought Kevin Sumlin's spread and speed attack with him. Outside of Florida State all the league teams on our schedule go some form of spread without huddling...so you need safeties. Our last two classes purely on a quality level based on who they were recruited by are a reflection of that with PJ Blue a year ago and CJ Avery and Trasean Smith in the most recent. Louisville should have a very good secondary in 2017 and it looks like they are trying to transition into more of a 4-2-5 base. Zykesis Cannon took snaps all over the defense in 2016 and wouldn't be listed by most as a returning starter, but he was our primary nickel guy and used in blitz packages, he played some backside corner and is a sawed off version of what Harvey-Clemons was. He is always around the football and plays almost like a third linebacker...but you're probably not going to lock him up with much frequency in man-to-man situations. The one common denominator we had with Grantham in his three years at Louisville was we statistically were really good through the first half of the season--and in all three years that would include games against Clemson...but faded in November. That first year under Grantham was loaded with kids going into the NFL...and even then faded against fairly average to that point offenses outside of ACC play in Notre Dame and UK. I was of the opinion that suggested problems with depth...so if depth remains a concern, so does all season production vs. in league. The lazy fans among our fanbase parrot stuff that the Georgians used to moan about...but I thought our issues were more personnel than anything. One thing that I would agree with on Grantham though...if you quick huddled against his defense you could get big plays out of it; we gave up touchdowns in consecutive years that cost us the winning score against Clemson and suffered the same fate against Georgia in our bowl three years ago.

They need a couple kids who were big recruiting stories in the last two years to emerge--DT GG Robinson who was an eleventh hour NSD drama between us and Auburn, LB Caban and SS/LB PJ Blue out of Alabama both apparently byproducts of some of the staff turnover at South Carolina. Louisville has good, experienced numbers at DT with Bailey, Richardson and Chris Williams...but would be upgraded with Robinson living up to his billing.

 

[Grumpyolddawg]

On a purely talent, credentials and professional projection level...Jaire Alexander at CB, Stacy Thomas at LB and Drew Bailey at DT are the most highly regarded players Louisville have defensively. Of those...Jaire Alexander was recruited by Petrino's staff out of Charlotte, NC after initially being a South Carolina commitment; Drew Bailey came to Louisville as a JUCO transfer with three years of eligibility and recruited by Pitino's staff; Thomas was recruited by the Charlie Strong staff and signed in Petrino's first class. I think it's very fair to ask in the cases of Thomas and Bailey in particular if their production wasn't more the byproduct of running mates Keith Kelsey--a three year starter at LB--and Deangelo Brown--a three plus year starter as DT/NT. The fourth upperclassmen who gets the most pub on Louisville defensively is DE/OLB James Hearns who I think was recruited by Charlie Strong's staff if memory serves. Hearns is unquestionably the big play guy in the front seven with 11 TFLs, 8 sacks and 5 forced fumbles but that's something of a paradox...despite the defense being statistically highly rated through October last year we got virtually nothing in pass rush outside of Hearns with the exception of the FSU game where it looked like a track meet to the QB. It seems like we went one four game stretch in the middle of ACC play without a sack.

Fair also is the question as to Louisville's front seven depth; it's the question I had going into last season. It cost us in November where I thought we were playing three DEs and Fields looked dinged from the late October on and they lost a year from Travon Young who was a great compliment to Fields as a pass rusher in 2015 before breaking his hip against Texas A&M; he returns after last year's medical redshirt year...but broken hips aren't exactly injuries renowned for improving your ability to rush a passer. Greenard as a DE had a big game against NC State when Fields got hurt on the first series of that game; but he didn't play as much late. Greenard at 6"5 is a natural three point DE; Louisville was playing more of a 3-4 where he stood up last year and would have looked like a giraffe if you dropped him in coverage. Of the two middle linebackers they took virtually every snap with Thomas returning; most believed based on HS credentials and pure alleged talent that Amonte Caban would flank Thomas but he hasn't made the field yet.

Given the nature of teams in Louisville's division--most obviously Clemson--Louisville has made a concerted effort in consecutive classes to recruit safeties and hybrid safeties. Clemson goes no huddle exclusively, Duke plays quite a bit of it and minimally spreads you out, Dino Babers at Syracuse brought Kevin Sumlin's spread and speed attack with him. Outside of Florida State all the league teams on our schedule go some form of spread without huddling...so you need safeties. Our last two classes purely on a quality level based on who they were recruited by are a reflection of that with PJ Blue a year ago and CJ Avery and Trasean Smith in the most recent. Louisville should have a very good secondary in 2017 and it looks like they are trying to transition into more of a 4-2-5 base. Zykesis Cannon took snaps all over the defense in 2016 and wouldn't be listed by most as a returning starter, but he was our primary nickel guy and used in blitz packages, he played some backside corner and is a sawed off version of what Harvey-Clemons was. He is always around the football and plays almost like a third linebacker...but you're probably not going to lock him up with much frequency in man-to-man situations. The one common denominator we had with Grantham in his three years at Louisville was we statistically were really good through the first half of the season--and in all three years that would include games against Clemson...but faded in November. That first year under Grantham was loaded with kids going into the NFL...and even then faded against fairly average to that point offenses outside of ACC play in Notre Dame and UK. I was of the opinion that suggested problems with depth...so if depth remains a concern, so does all season production vs. in league. The lazy fans among our fanbase parrot stuff that the Georgians used to moan about...but I thought our issues were more personnel than anything. One thing that I would agree with on Grantham though...if you quick huddled against his defense you could get big plays out of it; we gave up touchdowns in consecutive years that cost us the winning score against Clemson and suffered the same fate against Georgia in our bowl three years ago.

They need a couple kids who were big recruiting stories in the last two years to emerge--DT GG Robinson who was an eleventh hour NSD drama between us and Auburn, LB Caban and SS/LB PJ Blue out of Alabama both apparently byproducts of some of the staff turnover at South Carolina. Louisville has good, experienced numbers at DT with Bailey, Richardson and Chris Williams...but would be upgraded with Robinson living up to his billing.

Grantham's biggest problem is his ego, he believes he can outscheme whoever he plays, which he very well may have been able to do if a team wasn't trying to play fast against him. When he was with us he wasn't a good recruiter and the reason our defense has been so young the last couple years. He is better suited for the NFL than college because he runs some complicated schemes and kids have a tough time learning it with the limitations college football has timewise. We play him again this year, his defense is designed to stop offenses like we run. But if you go on quick counts or a fast pace, his defenses are usually off balance, plus he isn't real big on rotating his DL and they get tired early.

 

[Tcat_2]

Thanks for filling me in Grumpy.

 

[CardHack]

Grantham's biggest problem is his ego, he believes he can outscheme whoever he plays, which he very well may have been able to do if a team wasn't trying to play fast against him. When he was with us he wasn't a good recruiter and the reason our defense has been so young the last couple years. He is better suited for the NFL than college because he runs some complicated schemes and kids have a tough time learning it with the limitations college football has timewise. We play him again this year, his defense is designed to stop offenses like we run. But if you go on quick counts or a fast pace, his defenses are usually off balance, plus he isn't real big on rotating his DL and they get tired early.

Grantham's defenses are reputed to being very complex and I think that leads to playing a core of more experienced people extensive snaps (I think you're making the same observation I am)...that was certainly the case in his three years at Louisville and part of my discomfort with how we'd go through November; going into bowl preparations you'd never hear about that redshirt who emerged and you could see emerge for Spring Practice. There was rarely what a Power 5 member would call quality depth development. Also if you were losing somebody who was a defensive quarterback and really in tune with Grantham--in our case it was Harvey-Clemons who obviously was with him at Georgia--you took a big step backwards because the responsibilities weren't delegated out well to someone else. I think that's why we saw so much of Zykesis Canon at so many different positions; he knew what had to be done, he was good at communicating in the heat of battle and he played well regardless of position whereas you wouldn't think he'd be the prototypical strong safety or nickel.

That change of pace flat got us beat against Clemson in consecutive years; two touchdowns off gadget action for the go ahead score.

 

[21Goose]

I think we saw the beginning of depth issues last year across the board at UL. They are finally playing a schedule were they must play their first units every weekend the entire game. They had to gut it out against Duke and Wake Forrest (if I remember correctly). It showed at the end of the year. A lot of their first string and some 2nd string guys were dinged or out hence the 0-3 finish. Go Cats!