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Do we overrate Jordan's supporting cast

G

gamecockcat

All-SEC
Oct 29, 2004
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Horace Grant 1x All-Star
Rodman 0 All-Star as a Bull
Cartwright 0 All Star
Kerr, Armstrong, Paxson 0 All-Star
Kukoc 0 All-Star
Winnington Are you kidding?

Granted Pippen was an all-timer but would he have improved as much without Jordan? He was very unheralded when drafted and grew into a great player. Does that happen on another team?

For all the belly aching that LBJ and commentators do re: his lack of help, can't say MJ was constantly surrounded by a ton of talent other than Pippen. A bunch of role players or good players on the downside of their career.

Is MJ's supporting cast being overrated? LBJ has had several squads that would compare very favorably with MJ's.
 
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Not a lebron fan at all, but the Cavs did an absolute piss poor embarrassing ass job of getting him any help at all. They traded kyrie who was the best help he's had for nothing really. And to trade a rookie contract Wiggins for love was awful.
That being said MJ and crew would beat bron's best 12/15
 
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Back then If you were an all star you were an all star. Now a days it’s fans voting. I think you have to throw that off the table when comparing teams. Rodman would be an all star as a bull player today as draymond green was for the warriors. Media and fans would vote him in instantly. By the way I wish it was the old way! Better players made all star games.
 
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Rodman one of the best rebounders of all time, Kerr was one of the best 3 point shooters in NBA history, Kukoc was the best non-American player at the time and they almost made the Finals without MJ. Every player on those teams knew and played their roles perfectly.
 
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Born and raised Big Blue said:
Back then If you were an all star you were an all star. Now a days it’s fans voting. I think you have to throw that off the table when comparing teams. Rodman would be an all star as a bull player today as draymond green was for the warriors. Media and fans would vote him in instantly. By the way I wish it was the old way! Better players made all star games.
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Fan voting led to Grant Hill making several ASG while physically unable to run.
 
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TrustinCal said:
Rodman one of the best rebounders of all time, Kerr was one of the best 3 point shooters in NBA history, Kukoc was the best non-American player at the time and they almost made the Finals without MJ. Every player on those teams knew and played their roles perfectly.
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Those Bulls teams were built and coached like the recent Spurs teams. You can dissect the individual parts, but you miss the picture of how well they worked together.

Plus Jordan never had to face a super-team like GSWs.
 
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I think the media, especially Lebronophiles, completely undervalue James' teammates and slightly overvalue Michael's teammates to push LJ as the GOAT. Lebron had Wade, Bosh, and Allen in Miami (3 HOFers and possibly a 4th) where he went 2 and 2 in finals (and go blown out by SA in 2014). Then in Cleveland, he has had Love and Kyrie (before this year).

Michael's teammates didn't come as HOFers but grew to be outstanding. especially on the defensive end. Pippen was one of the best on the defensive end and on the break. He could not create his own shot and neither could any of other of Michael's teammates. What separates MJ and LJ is that Michael's teammates had very specific roles and knew Michael would take over when it got tight. LJ does too much and the roles are not as defined.
 
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ObjectivelyModerate said:
I think the media, especially Lebronophiles, completely undervalue James' teammates and slightly overvalue Michael's teammates to push LJ as the GOAT. Lebron had Wade, Bosh, and Allen in Miami (3 HOFers and possibly a 4th) where he went 2 and 2 in finals (and go blown out by SA in 2014). Then in Cleveland, he has had Love and Kyrie (before this year).

Michael's teammates didn't come as HOFers but grew to be outstanding. especially on the defensive end. Pippen was one of the best on the defensive end and on the break. He could not create his own shot and neither could any of other of Michael's teammates. What separates MJ and LJ is that Michael's teammates had very specific roles and knew Michael would take over when it got tight. LJ does too much and the roles are not as defined.
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Yes. Lebron has had terrible teammates during 3 of his finals runs. In the other 6 he has won a title 50% of the time.

Lebron’s greatness is not dependent on his title runs. Its the fact that he is 6’9 behemoth that can play any game, style, pace and is a virtually unstoppable individual force. If he had Jordan’s supporting cast, and particularly his coach he would be 9-0 currently in the NBA finals.
 
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Um, no. When the Cavs have a rebounder like Rodman, or shooters like Kerr, Hodges, Kukoc and Armstrong, not to mention Pippen, then maybe we can talk.
 
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gossie21 said:
Those Bulls teams were built and coached like the recent Spurs teams. You can dissect the individual parts, but you miss the picture of how well they worked together.

Plus Jordan never had to face a super-team like GSWs.
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Gossie, sometimes your age really shows. Jordan didnt winn anything until the superteams of the 80's aged out. For 11 years, 3 teams won 10 of the titles, Lakers 5, Celtics 3, Pistons 2. Any of those teams would destroy GS. Then the Bulls were the super team. Bill Lambier, quote literally, would beat Draymonds butt.
 
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The the problem here is, everyone is either a Jordan fan or a LeBron fan. And nothing is going to change their mind. And everyone is going to just cherry-pick stats that back up their opinion. That's why this debate will go on for eternity. The fact that it is such debate is proof of how great LeBron is. He's the the only one you can put in the debate with Jordan.
 
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SilentsAreGolden said:
Um, no. When the Cavs have a rebounder like Rodman, or shooters like Kerr, Hodges, Kukoc and Armstrong, not to mention Pippen, then maybe we can talk.
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Kukoc wasn't that good of a shooter. Look at the stats. Kerr averaged a little over 1 three point field goals a game. Kevin Love led the NBA in rebounding once and had 4 straight years over 12.5 and maxing out at 15.2. Kyle Korver is a great 3 point shooter. Kyrie Irving, Wade, Bosh, Ray Allen, Kevin Love... 3-6. And don't tell me Ray Allen doesn't count because without Allen he is 2-7.
 
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BigBlueFanGA said:
Gossie, sometimes your age really shows. Jordan didnt winn anything until the superteams of the 80's aged out. For 11 years, 3 teams won 10 of the titles, Lakers 5, Celtics 3, Pistons 2. Any of those teams would destroy GS. Then the Bulls were the super team. Bill Lambier, quote literally, would beat Draymonds butt.
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I can just imagine the fights that would ensue from a Pistons vs Warriors matchup. Their rough style might give GS a lot of trouble. But the Lakers and Celtics were finesse teams, like GS. I am not sure they would have answers for Durant and Curry.
 
nascarforthedead said:
Kukoc wasn't that good of a shooter. Look at the stats. Kerr averaged a little over 1 three point field goals a game. Kevin Love led the NBA in rebounding once and had 4 straight years over 12.5 and maxing out at 15.2. Kyle Korver is a great 3 point shooter. Kyrie Irving, Wade, Bosh, Ray Allen, Kevin Love... 3-6. And don't tell me Ray Allen doesn't count because without Allen he is 2-7.
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Yeah, was thinking he was better, but average at best from 3. Still, the others were, and the Cavs have no shooters period. Oops, forgot about Korver.
 
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nascarforthedead said:
Kukoc wasn't that good of a shooter. Look at the stats. Kerr averaged a little over 1 three point field goals a game. Kevin Love led the NBA in rebounding once and had 4 straight years over 12.5 and maxing out at 15.2. Kyle Korver is a great 3 point shooter. Kyrie Irving, Wade, Bosh, Ray Allen, Kevin Love... 3-6. And don't tell me Ray Allen doesn't count because without Allen he is 2-7.
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I was talking of the Cavs, and Love and Korver are the only ones of those still playing with James.
 
Every year, there is a new excuse from Lebron fans as to why his team loses. LJ did a great job getting his team to the Finals but he has has no competition in the East for 8 years. I hope Lebron goes to the Lakers or Spurs and we get to see if he can lead that team out of the West.
 
ObjectivelyModerate said:
Every year, there is a new excuse from Lebron fans as to why his team loses. LJ did a great job getting his team to the Finals but he has has no competition in the East for 8 years. I hope Lebron goes to the Lakers or Spurs and we get to see if he can lead that team out of the West.
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Very true. Boston Celtics won the East with Isiah Thomas as their best player in 2017. The Raptors won the East in 2018. The RAPTORS!!! LJ had a cake walk to the finals every year. He wasn't even the best player in the 2018 Finals, much less of all time.
 
SilentsAreGolden said:
Um, no. When the Cavs have a rebounder like Rodman, or shooters like Kerr, Hodges, Kukoc and Armstrong
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LOL at you putting "Hodges" in this group. Are you kidding?

It's true Hodges was a member of two Bulls title teams, but only as an end-of-bench over-the-hill scrub who was like the 11th and 12th man in minutes on those two teams. And the next year he got cut, nobody in the League would sign him, and he was out of basketball.

Hodges was only good at one thing at that stage of his career--three point contests, because that was his only remaining skill--uncontested threes. Everything else he lacked--couldn't play defense, poor dribbling/passing skills, poor athleticism, couldn't drive, etc. Using a scrub like Hodges to make your point here is laughable.
 
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The Knicks were really good in the early 90’s, Ewing was in his prime.
The Rockets and Olajuwon were rolling.

The Utah Jazz were a damn good team.

There were some very good teams in the Bulls run. I wanted them to lose every series, but they just won.

The problem with James is James.
 
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Yes Jordan made average players look very good. The bulls had role players and Jordan and pippen. Kevin love is no chopped liver but he and lebron never really played well off each other the way Jordan and pippen did. Lebron is no Michael Jordan. Jordan pulled off crazy stuff with illness and the murder of his dad. What athlete has faced that type of adversity in the middle of his career and achieved what he did??
 
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SilentsAreGolden said:
I can just imagine the fights that would ensue from a Pistons vs Warriors matchup. Their rough style might give GS a lot of trouble.
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Do you not get that the those fights would not occur, and that "rough style" would not be allowed, if they were playing under today's rules?

Some don't seem to realize this, but the way NBA games are officiated (beginning with those rule changes near the mid 00s) has dramatically changed. All that perimeter handchecking, and so much of the body-checking and physicality underneath that epitomized the late 80s and 90s NBA, is no longer allowed under today's rules.

That's why I think it's so dumb when people argue about who'd win from that era against today's teams WITHOUT taking into account the rule changes. Those Bad Boy Piston teams would be lost, and foul out half their rotation by half-time, if they tried playing that thug ball style under today's rules. But, yeah, the story might be quite different if they played by 1990 rules.

The answer to the question of who'd win these hypothetical cross-era matchups often depends on a crucial thing those posing the questions overlook: Whose rules are we playing by?
 
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I'd love to watch a game between this warriors team and the 96 bulls. People always bring up Jordan's scoring but forget Chicago was always top tier defensive team. Jordan and Pippen would give Steph and KD fits. Rodman on Dray and Ron Harper on Klay. I mean I like the Bulls there.
 
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Born and raised Big Blue said:
Back then If you were an all star you were an all star. Now a days it’s fans voting. I think you have to throw that off the table when comparing teams. Rodman would be an all star as a bull player today as draymond green was for the warriors. Media and fans would vote him in instantly. By the way I wish it was the old way! Better players made all star games.
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It is noteworthy that Lebron wanted Love there over Wiggins and Kyrie apparently didn’t like playing with Lebron. Every person Cleveland has on their team has been a person Lebron wanted there with him. From what I have read that may have been one of the biggest reasons he left Miami. He wants more control than just playing. And I j ow this has happened a lot in sports but probably not on the level Lebron can command because he is so good. Just my opinion, Lebron can’t blame Cleveland because those are the people he wanted in at Cleveland
 
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Don’t forget about the superstar Luc Longley. The main difference is consistency and when parts did change, they did a great job filling them with players that matched the system. LeBron has never had a coach like Phil either, especially not in Cleveland.

The Cavs have done a poor job with players but I also think LeBron is partially to blame considering he goes in to each season on a one year contract. This leads to bringing in stop-gaps each season instead of developing talent around him.
 
People aren't recognizing the difference between accumulating talent and building a team. LeBron has spent 8 years playing alongside a slapdash accumulation of talent, a lot of which was his choice. The Bulls spent years building a team around Jordan, and while specific parts of those teams would come and go, there was never really any drastic change in how those Bulls teams were constructed. Every player went into a season knowing his role.

The sad thing in retrospect is what happened in Cleveland in LeBron's initial run. Here are Cleveland's 1st round picks from 04-09:

04- Luke Jackson
05- traded away the pick
06- Shannon Brown
07- traded the pick
08- JJ Hickson
09- Christian Eyenga

It's not easy to accumulate good young talent when you're not drafting near the top, but still, Cleveland completely failed to get anyone for LeBron to play with. So he left, and really started to take on some GM duties for himself. To his own detriment, at times.
 
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TrustinCal said:
Rodman one of the best rebounders of all time, Kerr was one of the best 3 point shooters in NBA history, Kukoc was the best non-American player at the time and they almost made the Finals without MJ. Every player on those teams knew and played their roles perfectly.
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This. If anything, his supporting cast was UNDER-rated
 
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gamecockcat said:
Horace Grant 1x All-Star
Rodman 0 All-Star as a Bull
Cartwright 0 All Star
Kerr, Armstrong, Paxson 0 All-Star
Kukoc 0 All-Star
Winnington Are you kidding?

Granted Pippen was an all-timer but would he have improved as much without Jordan? He was very unheralded when drafted and grew into a great player. Does that happen on another team?

For all the belly aching that LBJ and commentators do re: his lack of help, can't say MJ was constantly surrounded by a ton of talent other than Pippen. A bunch of role players or good players on the downside of their career.

Is MJ's supporting cast being overrated? LBJ has had several squads that would compare very favorably with MJ's.
Click to expand...
`
Pippen was "very unheralded" when drafted? no.
 
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Bobcat94 said:
I've actually been a fan of both Jordan and Lebron and I think the either or is borderline ridiculous. They both are the best players of their era and IMO the top 2 players to ever play the game. Why does it have to be either or?
Click to expand...


It doesn't. And great point
 
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SilentsAreGolden said:
I can just imagine the fights that would ensue from a Pistons vs Warriors matchup. Their rough style might give GS a lot of trouble. But the Lakers and Celtics were finesse teams, like GS. I am not sure they would have answers for Durant and Curry.
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Oh I think Magic and Jabbar could answer. They are the best one two punch in NBA history and nobody is close.

Magic and Kareem scored a combined:
  • 9 NBA MVP's
  • 21 NBA All-Star selections
  • 5 NBA finals MVP's
  • 19 NBA All-First teams
  • 5 NBA championships
  • 56,094 career points (4,761 more than Jordan and Pippen)
 
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SilentsAreGolden said:
I can just imagine the fights that would ensue from a Pistons vs Warriors matchup. Their rough style might give GS a lot of trouble. But the Lakers and Celtics were finesse teams, like GS. I am not sure they would have answers for Durant and Curry.
Click to expand...

I think curry would be afraid to leave the ground on his jumper against the pistons. Hard to shoot when you are taken out below the knees.
 
gossie21 said:
Yes. Lebron has had terrible teammates during 3 of his finals runs. In the other 6 he has won a title 50% of the time.

Lebron’s greatness is not dependent on his title runs. Its the fact that he is 6’9 behemoth that can play any game, style, pace and is a virtually unstoppable individual force. If he had Jordan’s supporting cast, and particularly his coach he would be 9-0 currently in the NBA finals.
Click to expand...

If Jordan was a 6'9" behemoth we wouldn't even be having this GOAT conversation. Jordan was unguardable because of his talent and not because he was physically bigger, stronger and faster than everyone else like LeBron. If LeBron was 6'6" and 215 he wouldn't be considered the GOAT.
 
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