I happen to believe most return next to form the basis of an outstanding team. And I’m clearly aware there isn’t a Wall, AD etc on this team by watching them play. Lol
Cal has a roster full of......
- Thread starter C*A*T*S
- Start date
I remember at Memphis and UMASS how he just relaxed in his chair as the McD's AA's won 500 games and went to a couple Final Fours.
All this shows is that HS rankings should just be taken with a grain of salt, and aren't always accurate. Although I think more accurately they may be a reflection of where they are projected to be in X years, not where they are currently. So they value the things they can project forward more easily (height, length, vertical, quickness) than they can the things that can be improved significantly over time (ballhandling, shooting, passing, game awareness/smarts).
I agree. Now players can surprise us, and make unwise choices. But:
- Vanderbilt is not a first round pick, he can't shoot from more than arm's length from the basket, I would fire a GM that spent a 1st round pick on him this year
- Washington has not been projected as a 1st round pick all season, and honestly isn't even a 2nd round pick right now because of both his performance and that he is an undersized PF
- Richards, while I think he has the most long term potential and maybe even for next year, he probably is at best a early 2nd round pick right now (only because of his size & athletcism)
- Green is simply too short, unless he is able to perform as an elite player, which he has not, to ever leave early
- SKJ is a nice complementary piece, but he is probably a 4 year player, but I think he could be a pro someday
- Gabriel has progressed from last year, but is still not a first round pick, and is a questionable 2nd round pick. Although I think some believe he may go anyway for financial reasons knowing he would play in the D/G-league or overseas.
- Diallo we all believe really wants to go. But he's done nothing this season to improve his stock, mainly to show he can shoot, in fact if anything he has probably lowered his stock. But he I think is still likely to go, but it's not a sure thing any longer.
- Knox is the surest 1st round pick right now. Projected in the teens. But he isn't progressing, and I think could drop into the low-20's. He doesn't have that burst of quickness the NBA wants from a SF. If projected in the low 20's, I could see him returning to try & get a significantly bigger initial contract of a top 5-10 pick.
- SGA could be the most interesting choice. Before the season nobody saw him as a potential OAD. But he has been our most consistent player. Still he's not a true PG, doesn't pass enough to be a pass first PG, nor score enough to be a scoring PG. He's good at a lot of things, but not great at anything. His height/length is one of his biggest assets/advantages, but in the NBA he wouldn't be bigger than most PGs like he is now. If still projected in the 1st Cal might advise him to leave, because I'm not sure he will have higher stock later if he were to return.
Obviously we don't get everyone we want, but over the last decade, I could make a list of at least a dozen guys that have wanted a UK offer or to commit to use that we never pursued. Ayton had a UK hat on the table in his final three even with no offer. Duval never got an offer. Tremont Waters never got an offer. Billy Preston never got an offer. And that's from this year alone.
So to say Cal just takes the highest ranked guys with no concept of how they fit together, or their personality, or anything besides class rankings (as if he even looks at those, which is hilarious and would make me too embarrassed to ever post again if I had said that) is absurd and flies in the face of 10 years of evidence.
Cal clearly has a type of kid he wants to bring here. Anyone who cares enough about the program to post here has to see that. So if they dont, or pretend not to, ask yourself why that is.
You said they are freshman. Gabriel and Jones aren't. So what's the excuse for these two 5*'s ?
Improvement doesn't equate to draft stock. Production doesn't equate to draft stock. Alex Poythress was miles better as a senior than as a freshman, but he was four years older and coming off an ACL injury.
I think Alex had a pretty good freshman year. He probably could have gone in first round that year.
Because they are sophomores? What’s the excuse for several 5 stars over the years for Duke? Or does your agenda only apply to UK? I bet that’s the case.
Damn I'm tired of seeing 5'10" guards driving and getting and 1
Exactly. Best player and ultimate game changer Marcus Camby at Umass, and numerous 5 stars at Memphis with the best player in the country Derrick Rose. Is there anyone actually debating that he is an above average X and O's guy? If you say he is, you need to take the tinted glasses off. He is the ultimate salesman, motivator, and master ego checker to get kids to play for each other. Those are all tremendous skills to have and is why he is so successful. I love him and want him to stay as long as he wants, just wish he would get an assistant that is an exceptional X and O's guy (young, up and coming creative mind)
No, not this year. SGA has certainly gotten better, but I don't know if you can point to anyone else getting better. But I think this year is far more the outlier than the norm.
The buck stops with Cal but that said these guys make some really poor decisions on the court. I don't think he told PJ to run over that guy last night or Qade to run out of bounds. Its on everyone a little. It is also on us for always assuming the team with the most (freshmen) 5 stars is guaranteed a great season. It does not work that way and most of us know it.
That's much different than master technicians like Coach K, Tom Izzo, or Brad Stevens, who won without players like Laettner, Randolph, and Hayward.
He could have, but he wasn't nearly as good a player as he was when he left.
That's what I'm saying. Players can be coached up and improve and still not be drafted as high because the NBA factors in things besides raw production. Tyler Ulis was an incredible PG and went behind lots of guys who weren't as productive as he was.
Yes, all three of those guys are superior X and O's coaches to Cal. What's your point? And what is wrong with saying that?
Your evidence that Cal isn't a great coach is that he only won at the highest level with great players. I gave you guys who you consider better coaches than him who also only won with great players.
I can't point it out to you any more plainly.
Who said he isn't a great coach? I said he isn't a great X and O's coach, which is 100% true. Wouldn't you like someone on the staff who is an exceptional offensive mind to get us easy shots? We have to work so damn hard to score because our half court sets are horrendous.
We have to work hard to score because our guys can't shoot and most don't dribble well.
And I was referring to Xs and Os in my previous posts. All coaches win with elite talent. Izzo and Coach K also struggled with young and even more talented teams last year.
UK doesn't score because they don't run anything offensively except putting the bigs on the elbows, an occasional high ball screen, and running our worst shooter (Diallo) off baseline screens. I agree that this team can't shoot and has a low bball IQ, we all can see that. But get more creative with your offensive sets. Post up Knox and Shai and let them work on the block, sets back screens, run some Princeton offense with back door cuts. Let Vanderbilt run the point. Do something else besides the crap the we are running now. Cal is just too stubborn. Do you not agree that our half court offense is terrible and we run the same stuff over and over without improvement? Just frustrating as a fan to watch this half court offense.
But I digress...
We returned 2 players that had very little talent from last years team and on top of it the 2017 recruiting class was the weakest in the last 10 years according to all the scouts. There was only a couple real diffrence makers and we missed or passed on those. That is a recipe for a down year that we are experiencing.
It appears to me that the recruiting situation is likely to change in the foreseeable future. The allure of Cal for the truly talented high school players is that he has an unmatched record of getting great players into the NBA in the shortest time. His record of developing players and making great ones out of good ones is more questionable. The NBA appears to be ready to draft HS recruits and thus would end the supply of the super-talented OADs. Recruits with less than NBA-ready talent will tend to gravitate toward coaches that have reputations of making great players out of good ones. And, I don't believe that this is a strong suit for Cal. But, a hall of fame coach should be able to adapt to any situation and no doubt he will do whatever he needs to do. (Unless he throws up his hands and goes to Cleveland).
Why are you lacking so much common sense here?
Lamb was drafted..
These are lower end 5's in a bad class.
Our sophomores have most definitley improved.
I'm waiting for you to make one factual statement in this thread.
Improvement is based upon draft position?
Keeps getting dumber. Potential sweet heart, potential is what draft position is based upon. Hundreds of players improve every year in college.
I don't think Alex or Jones were lower end 5's. And you're right lamb went second round draft. So much for your factual statement.
The only dumb thing is you think Gabriel and Jones have gotten better from last year. Prove it.
So it’s not possible to improve unless you get drafted? That’s the yardstick now?
I'm a critic of Cal's system for multiple reasons, but no coach improves guys significantly in year 1, problem is that's all Cal is going to have most of these guys.
Cal is going to have to change his recruiting strategy or learn how to beat Duke for recruits or we will be in this position as much as we're not. And don't try to look at the past, that was when Cal wasn't really competing against Duke, the landscape has changed and the question is whether Cal can and wants to change.
So... Jones couldnt get off the bench at all last year. Wenyen has had some outstanding rebound games that he didnt last yer.
You are being overdramatic, it's dumb, not surprised, you have done this before.
Those 2 are never going to be stars but they have improved.
You have yet to make a factual statement. Just admit you are pissed and talking out your ass, most of us have been since the last minutes of the Auburn game...
I agree, and it's been true since he's been here. Cal is a motivator and salesman, but X's and O's not so much.
For instance, what do we do on offense to get more out of our team than the individual pieces, ie how does the offensive system help the players besides them not having to learn concepts.
Defense, straight man to man switching everything. Basic, vanilla and we he tries to teach zone it is ugly.
You can love the coach without trying to believe he's a good XO guy.
I find it significant that many anti-Cal posts are made by people with relatively small post counts. It is like they waited until we had a mediocre year so that they could load up and post after every failure the team has. Plus, everything has already been said, and yet, they come up with new ideas to try to discredit him. I am torn between thinking that these are UL fans that want him gone, so they can beat UK again, or it is people who have forgotten the Billy G years, and have been spoiled by 4 final fours in six years.
Then provide us the names of players who improved in their freshman year, beyond simply getting comfortable and thereby getting better at what they were already good at?
Just naming the multi-year guys (as they are easier to notice):
- Liggins
- Miller
- Jorts
- Jones
- Hawkins
- Willis
- the Twins
I'm sure I missed some but those are the ones that jumped out at me.
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Anthony Davis was nowhere near POY when he arrived.
However my response was more regarding that Cal will have most of these guys more than one year..
We run Knox off the curl.
We run Quade from point, through the lane with the option to either keep running and go out to the corner, or if his man goes underneath to backpedal to the wing for the quick pass and three.
We run stuff to get Wenyen open in the corner.
We run lobs for Richards and he either drops them or Shai makes the wrong read.
We post PJ in isolation and also get him the ball at the elbow with a shooter opposite him in the corner and Richards/Gabriel on the baseline for the pass.
We put Shai/Quade and Knox in PnR with PJ opposite.
Our fans seem to think we just dribble down the court, dribble the clock out, and then try to go one on one and force a shot at the rim. That only happens when the other stuff breaks down.
If Wenyen shoots 40% from 3 last night, PJ doesn't miss a layup after making a great move, and Shai doesn't throw the ball away on a lob that he should have clearly just shot as a layup, we beat the #10 team in the country on the road in prime time. But instead those guys make mistakes and Cal can't coach.
I think maybe he can coach and our fans just aren't very smart. But that isn't a popular opinion around here for obvious reasons. So instead people just repeat the stuff they hear their buddy say at the water cooler even if it's factually inaccurate.
I hope that's true, but until I see that it's hard to believe.
Not true. Neither Jones nor Alex really improved.
TJ's production dropped in every category his second year, and his draft stock declined a bit as well.
And the best Poythress ever looked was at the beginning of his Freshman year (especially that Duke game). It was downhill from there (and his draft stock ended up completely crashing, falling from a projected high lottery pick as a freshman to not getting drafted at all).
Again another fallacy....
Here is what you have seen in the past.
EVERY freshman that has left has been a 1st Rounder.
We have one for sure with this team.
EVERY sophomore that has left was overhyped and didn’t reach NBA status their freshmen year, or had an attitude/hated school, was 10,000 miles away from family or transferred to a better system or avoid being recruited over.
Wenyen nor SKJ meet any of this criteria. Neither were expected to be drafted last season, both have good attitudes and no other bugs have been recruited.
So all you are going on is pure speculation with no basis in history.
Could Hami and Diallo be the 1st freshmen to jump without 1st Round potential? Sure.
Could Shai be ok going in the 2nd Round? Maybe.
But you haven’t seen it yet.
