“It Really Comes Down to Who Commits First”

[SilentsAreGolden]

I'm guessing that KenPom ranking for Butler was after the tournament and not going into it. They were 1-3 against ranked teams in the regular season. And you guys still almost lost on a buzzer beater. Keep telling yourselves you all were the best team that year.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

I'm guessing that KenPom ranking for Butler was after the tournament and not going into it. They were 1-3 against ranked teams in the regular season. And you guys still almost lost on a buzzer beater. Keep telling yourselves you all were the best team that year.

The Duke fan is rejecting the circumstances of both tournaments. The 2011 UConn team benefitted because the best team in that region - Duke (ironic, eh?) - massively underachieved before the Final Four. The 2010 Duke team, on the other hand, and not unlike their 2015 run, benefitted from the road before the Final Four, where the best non-Duke teams in both regions for those years advanced but were pathetically represented by the likes of Baylor and Gonzaga.

Duke benefits from a fixed system. A naïve ignoramus might choose to ignore the objective evidence, but that doesn't change the reality.

 

[topps coach]

Why are you being so obtuse?? Is it deliberate...one month solitary

Loved that movie

 

[KnowsAllTellsAll]

Newman's coming to Lawrence to run the show, even if he's better off-the-ball. Young, and any other elite point guard given to solid logical disposition, will not come within 100 miles of your campus on a serious level. It will be Newman's show. You should be happy with that. You finally landed an elite point guard, even if his arrival does constitute a case of "sloppy seconds."

It is well documented and acknowledged by Newman himself, that he was told by Self that he is not going to be the point guard and Newman knows that.

Um, you. That guy is paid I would assume to throw meat at the ravenous fanbase. You are the clueless one who eats it up.

Nope. I am a disbeliever that Young will end up at KU. I want to believe that he will though, like any KU fan.

 

[BlueDevilish4857]

The Duke fan is rejecting the circumstances of both tournaments. The 2011 UConn team benefitted because the best team in that region - Duke (ironic, eh?) - massively underachieved before the Final Four. The 2010 Duke team, on the other hand, and not unlike their 2015 run, benefitted from the road before the Final Four, where the best non-Duke teams in both regions for those years advanced but were pathetically represented by the likes of Baylor and Gonzaga.

Duke benefits from a fixed system. A naïve ignoramus might choose to ignore the objective evidence, but that doesn't change the reality.

How is what you're saying evidence of a fixed system? Duke choked in the Sweet 16 vs. Arizona in 2011 plain and simple but that means UConn got supposedly another overrated team in the Elite Eight since Zona had no business being there. In reality though, Arizona played well above their seed seeing how they only lost by 2 points to UConn. It's clear they gelled at the right time and would have been regarded by the public and oddsmakers as a top 5 team in that field were the tournament to be played again.

I'm very surprised that you're dismissing 2010 Baylor and 2015 Gonzaga in such a pedantic manner since you seem like a very intelligent UK fan. KenPom had Baylor ranked #6 (not sure where they were at before the tournament) which means Duke played what should be the 2nd best #2 seed in the Elite Eight. How does that constitute an easy Regional Final exactly?

The only early break Duke got in 2010 was playing a Purdue team in the Sweet 16 where Boilermaker star Robbie Hummel was absent because he got injured late February. We were a little fortunate there but would have still been favored to win as we beat Purdue by double digits as it stood.

It was UK being upset by West Virginia in 2010 that opened the door for Duke in the Final Four. WVU was ranked #5 by Sagarin that year and #8 by Pomeroy so its not like they were a cake walk either having just beaten #3 UK (according to Sagarin and Pomeroy). And we all know what happened...Duke beat WVU like a pack of rented mules in the Final Four.

What's even more confusing is why UK fans think Duke got lucky in 2015. We played a Utah team that was seeded on the 5 line but was actually ranked #8 by Pomeroy and #9 by Sagain (low 2 high 3 seed territory) in the Sweet 16 for crying out loud. Then we played Gonzaga in the Elite Eight who was ranked #7 by both Pomeroy and Sagarin ahead of Note Dame, Kentucky's opponent, who was ranked #8 and #9 respectively by the two services.

I expect Kentucky fans to be smart enough to look beyond the name of the jersey and determine the quality of the players in them. Baylor in 2010 and Gonzaga in 2015 were extremely good teams and were par for the course for the type of teams Duke should be playing in the Elite Eight.

 

[Dablueman]

Duke insiders are very confident that we"ll get Wendell Carter, Mohammed Bamba, Quade Green, Kevin Knox and Gary Trent Jr.

I see UK getting Trae Young, Collin Sexton, John Petty, Jarred Vanderbilt and Nick Richards.

Michael Porter and DeAndre Ayton are far and away the 2 best players in this class though and Porter is a lock to play at Washington under Lorenzo Romar and Ayton will either go to Kansas or go overseas before the 2017 NBA Draft.

Come on zachdeer we been thru this. u guys get I'm gonna use the school more than it used me Carter. Bolden will be back and so will Jeter. 3five star bigs equal no Bamba. Ayton is no lock for Kansas been working hard to get Academics in order so it will be UK and Kansas for him. Yes Kansas recruited him when others dropped him but UK and Duke were his choices early in his recruitment and since duke didnt make his final cut and Kansas seems to not do well with Five star bigs. I'm betting we get Ayton as our stretch 4 and Bamba as our give.

 

[BlueDevilish4857]

I'm guessing that KenPom ranking for Butler was after the tournament and not going into it. They were 1-3 against ranked teams in the regular season. And you guys still almost lost on a buzzer beater. Keep telling yourselves you all were the best team that year.

Duke was the best team in the country in 2009-2010, only a fool would deny that.

We won the ACC Regular Season, won the ACC Tournament and were ranked #1 by Ken Pomeroy and #1 by Jeff Sagarin.

UK would have been underdogs vs. Duke had you guys just taken care of business and played us in the Final Four.

http://kenpom.com/index.php?y=2010

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/ncaab/sagarin/2010/teams/

 

[Dablueman]

Duke was the best team in the country in 2009-2010, only a fool would deny that.

We won the ACC Regular Season, won the ACC Tournament and were ranked #1 by Ken Pomeroy and #1 by Jeff Sagarin.

UK would have been underdogs vs. Duke had you guys just taken care of business and played us in the Final Four.

http://kenpom.com/index.php?y=2010

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/ncaab/sagarin/2010/teams/

Same bull crap zachdeer? Huge underdogs? Pretty certain we were the number one overall one seed. We had a fluke bad game. We had two all stars on that team and we would have been huge underdogs? Oh yeah what was if ur fool butt said last time? U were sure that Butler would have handled us. U guys had no one who could have stayed with Wall and cousins would have feasted on ur ass. K would have had to try zone and unlike WVa zone teams who aren't used to playing it wouldn't have worked. WVa had some bully's u guys didn't. uK would have destroyed Duke that year

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

How is what you're saying evidence of a fixed system? Duke choked in the Sweet 16 vs. Arizona in 2011 plain and simple but that means UConn got supposedly another overrated team in the Elite Eight since Zona had no business being there. In reality though, Arizona played well above their seed seeing how they only lost by 2 points to UConn. It's clear they gelled at the right time and would have been regarded by the public and oddsmakers as a top 5 team in that field were the tournament to be played again.

I'm very surprised that you're dismissing 2010 Baylor and 2015 Gonzaga in such a pedantic manner since you seem like a very intelligent UK fan. KenPom had Baylor ranked #6 (not sure where they were at before the tournament) which means Duke played what should be the 2nd best #2 seed in the Elite Eight. How does that constitute an easy Regional Final exactly?

The only early break Duke got in 2010 was playing a Purdue team in the Sweet 16 where Boilermaker star Robbie Hummel was absent because he got injured late February. We were a little fortunate there but would have still been favored to win as we beat Purdue by double digits as it stood.

It was UK being upset by West Virginia in 2010 that opened the door for Duke in the Final Four. WVU was ranked #5 by Sagarin that year and #8 by Pomeroy so its not like they were a cake walk either having just beaten #3 UK (according to Sagarin and Pomeroy). And we all know what happened...Duke beat WVU like a pack of rented mules in the Final Four.

What's even more confusing is why UK fans think Duke got lucky in 2015. We played a Utah team that was seeded on the 5 line but was actually ranked #8 by Pomeroy and #9 by Sagain (low 2 high 3 seed territory) in the Sweet 16 for crying out loud. Then we played Gonzaga in the Elite Eight who was ranked #7 by both Pomeroy and Sagarin ahead of Note Dame, Kentucky's opponent, who was ranked #8 and #9 respectively by the two services.

I expect Kentucky fans to be smart enough to look beyond the name of the jersey and determine the quality of the players in them. Baylor in 2010 and Gonzaga in 2015 were extremely good teams and were par for the course for the type of teams Duke should be playing in the Elite Eight.

Your thesis is lacking. The "name on the front" of the jersey argument is just my point. Seeding doesn't matter. Historical preeminence doesn't matter. Rankings, to a large degree, don't even matter. What matters, typically, is what teams are playing well in March and what teams have assembled solid amounts of NBA talent. That Baylor team was solid and had two future draft picks (Udoh and Acy), but Baylor constituted the biggest test Duke would face within that entire region; and that - the mere fact that Baylor was the second most significant opponent in that region - is my point. The 2 (Villanova) and 4 (Purdue) seeds in that bracket were comically inept, and their early demises allowed both Duke and Baylor to move forward with ease.

As for 2015 Gonzaga. The best player on their team was Sabonis. Think about that for a moment and let it settle in. The only other player of significance on that team, Wiltjer, wasn't even drafted. UK earned the overall #1, but was placed with the #3, #4, and #5 best teams in the nation on their side of the bracket. Virginia, the #6 best team after they lost their best player, was the only significant team on your entire side of the bracket. That's objectivity, whether you accept it or not. The NCAA wanted to try to ensure a Duke-UK final, but they got too cute and loaded up Kentucky's side, making their road a mine field (that is not to say UK underachieved, because they most certainly did underachieve).

All that said, Duke should get credit for winning the title both years. They played great basketball when it mattered. But for the life of me, how someone could try to reconstruct a narrative that Duke had a difficult path, even from a theoretical best teams advance level, is an inflated and misleading thesis.

I urge to look back at the bracket Kentucky had in '11, '12, '14 (which included you guys before you lost early), and '16. The '14 bracket is comical because it represented a "fair" placement for Duke, only to see Kentucky earn an 8 seed in the same bracket that UK ended up winning.

You guys have yet to have a "how did they put Duke there?" moment in years. I'm not sure how you can intelligently deny this. Even your bracket this year was comical when the NCAA gift-wrapped you a path to the Sweet Sixteen where one of the weakest #1 seeds in years awaited you.

 

[BlueDevilish4857]

Same bull crap zachdeer? Huge underdogs? Pretty certain we were the number one overall one seed. We had a fluke bad game. We had two all stars on that team and we would have been huge underdogs? Oh yeah what was if ur fool butt said last time? U were sure that Butler would have handled us. U guys had no one who could have stayed with Wall and cousins would have feasted on ur ass. K would have had to try zone and unlike WVa zone teams who aren't used to playing it wouldn't have worked. WVa had some bully's u guys didn't. uK would have destroyed Duke that year

Nope, check your sources because Duke was the overall number 1 seed in 2010. Wall and Cousins' NBA success has nothing to do with how they would have performed in that hypothetical game.

WVU's "bullies" clearly couldn't do much because Duke wiped the floor with WVU that year in a Nova-Oklahoma type beatdown.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

Nope, check your sources because Duke was the overall number 1 seed in 2010. Wall and Cousins' NBA success has nothing to do with how they would have performed in that hypothetical game.

WVU's "bullies" clearly couldn't do much because Duke wiped the floor with WVU that year in a Nova-Oklahoma type beatdown.

And WVU had a historically good game (at least in light of that particular season for them) from the perimeter against UK, while UK went 4-32 from three. It happens. After all, you guys should know. Just go ask Eastern Michigan, VCU, Lehigh, Mercer, or one of the other hapless underdogs you've gone down in flames to over the years.

Speaking of history, the next time one of your fans or coaches complains about seeding, it will likely mark the first time in the modern history someone from your program felt slighted with their overall seeding. And that is principally because you guys benefit from the system.

I know why it's hard for you to understand, though. In your mind, Coach K can do no wrong. Ignore the upsets and drubbings you suffered in '05, '06, '07, '08, '09, '11, '12, '13, '14, and '16. Instead, continue the narrative you've worked out in your biased mind - one that depicts Coach K as the most adaptable, brilliant basketball mind in the history of the sport.

He's an incredible coach, but your bias apparently won't even allow you to realize how much that position as a top 3 historic coach has actually benefitted him from a seeding level. People would probably respect and acknowledge your views a lot more if you were capable of more objectivity. Sadly, for you, some of your otherwise good points are getting lost in the mixture of the overt bias your spewing.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

Nope, check your sources because Duke was the overall number 1 seed in 2010. Wall and Cousins' NBA success has nothing to do with how they would have performed in that hypothetical game.

WVU's "bullies" clearly couldn't do much because Duke wiped the floor with WVU that year in a Nova-Oklahoma type beatdown.

Also, the "sources" say it was Kansas that earned the overall top seed. Kentucky was the overall #2 seed that year...and you guys earned the easiest bracket. Go figure.

Read it yourself if you don't believe me...

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/tournament/2010/news/story?id=4995190

 

[gracetoyou]

how do you know Allen wanted to come to UK and Cal put him on hold?
i doubt anyone on here talks to Cal about which players he puts on hold while holding out for another player

Alan wanted to commit on his visit. Bolden was the first priority is Center.... so UK asked him to wait

 

[Aike]

Yep. ZackDear number 2 is joining his alter ego on ignore.

 

[Untouchables22]

Also, the "sources" say it was Kansas that earned the overall top seed. Kentucky was the overall #2 seed that year...and you guys earned the easiest bracket. Go figure.

Read it yourself if you don't believe me...

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/tournament/2010/news/story?id=4995190

Yeah Kansas and Kentucky were CLEARLY the two best teams that year.....I agree with Son of Saul congrats on winning a title while starting John Scheyer at PG it's Super impressive (i'm being deadly serious). But the Morris twins and Cole Aldrich or Cousins and Patterson would have abused Zoubeck and the brothers Plumlee.

 

[ulismyman]

Not really sure why we ever worry about recruiting??? Can we just not enjoy the upcoming season...Cal will always get players...thanks and carry on

 

[Drcatfan]

Give me Ayton and Young and any other players. Ayton and Young are ready to be productive college players now.

 

[bucsrule8872]

Yeah pretty much, the only changes I would make is that Luke Kennard will almost definitely start over Gary Trent Jr. unless he doesn't progress at all this year.

As for UK, I realized I accidentally put Sexton instead of Diallo which is who I meant to write down in my earlier post.

Doesn't matter who starts between Kennard or Trent as both will get big minutes.

In fact, I can see Green starting with Jackson if Jackson struggles to adjust to being a PG.

Diallo makes more sense than Sexton, but I wasn't going to argue.

I still think we can get Bamba. Cal is selling him on being the next AD and he is talking about his decision being a business decision and while neither school is a bad choice for a big, Cal has a better track record with bigs, especially guys like Bamba.

 

[lakercat]

Nope, check your sources because Duke was the overall number 1 seed in 2010. Wall and Cousins' NBA success has nothing to do with how they would have performed in that hypothetical game.

WVU's "bullies" clearly couldn't do much because Duke wiped the floor with WVU that year in a Nova-Oklahoma type beatdown.

I hate to break it to you, but Kansas was the number one overall seed, maybe YOU should check your sources. Duke scored the final nine points of the game to win by 21 (largest lead prior to that was 16, I think); the lead stayed between 8-14 points for most of the second half. Villanova won by 44 points, but sure, it was a Nova-Oklahoma type beatdown. Gotta hand it to Duke, they could hit shots against a zone that Kentucky couldn't hit. Kentucky was only ranked fifth in 2011 because they went to the final four (they were the lowest four seed); if you believe that Butler, the five seed should have been ranked in the top ten, I can't help you. Duke ended the season ranked higher than Kentucky since they won the NC, and Kentucky lost three games prior. I take Ken Pemeroy stats with a grain of salt anyway. He has Texas A&M, a double-digit loss team, who lost in the second round as a 5-seed in the top ten (I get it; they played in the almighty Big 12). He also has Northern Iowa, while a nice team, ranked above a Michigan State team who BEAT them in the tournament. KenPom is about as useful as the RPI. Duke is great, but don't use KenPom to try and back up your statements, then use false data to make a rebuttal. The National Champs always finish first in the polls. Duke in 2015 was a great team, though. Although, if you believe that Utah and Gonzaga were better than Arizona or Notre Dame, I don't know what to tell you. Gonzaga beat SMU as their best win, while Utah lost eight games in the regular season (and didn't make the Pac-12 tournament final). Don't use stats as your only source of information; it's akin to believing everything that CNN tells you.

 

[Willy4UK]

I still think we can get Bamba. Cal is selling him on being the next AD and he is talking about his decision being a business decision and while neither school is a bad choice for a big, Cal has a better track record with bigs, especially guys like Bamba.

Bamba can go to duke and not get better like Okafor or he can go to UK and improve like Towns.

Plus he leaves after a year and learns some humbleness unlike Okafor who is whiny arrogant brat. Just like his coach.

 

[khuff80]

Weird. Evan Daniels says Kentucky and Oklahoma are ahead for Young. If he'd read the Kansas board he'd know that's not true.

Huh?

KU "lurker" and I think the majority of us know that we're running 3rd in the race, but not necessarily out of the running.

 

[jrpross]

Huh?

KU "lurker" and I think the majority of us know that we're running 3rd in the race, but not necessarily out of the running.

Exactly. There was some Kansas "expert" that claimed it was between Kansas and Oklahoma with Kentucky a distant third. He may have just been trying to create controversy, I don't know.

 

[khuff80]

Ayton to UK if UK wants him.

A class of Ayton, Young, Petty, Diallo, Vanderbilt, Richards, and semi- surprise like Knox is quite possible.

I doubt Richards goes to UK if they land Ayton....probably ends up at 'cuse or UConn then.

 

[khuff80]

This KU fan honestly believes it's a two-horse race between KU and OU for Young? The denial is strong with this one.

This KU fan thinks it's OU & UK. On his visit to KU for the KU / UK game - he was STILL in contact w/ Cal on the phone before arriving in Lawrence!!!!

It would also explain why KU's been hot & heavy after so many other PGs (Duval, Tr. Brown (more of a Wing now?), Sexton, Q. Green, Mc. Garrett....name the PG or Combo. G and they're in on them!!!....I doubt they'd be casting as wide of a net if they were THAT confident in landing Young).

 

[khuff80]

Newman's coming to Lawrence to run the show, even if he's better off-the-ball. Young, and any other elite point guard given to solid logical disposition, will not come within 100 miles of your campus on a serious level. It will be Newman's show. You should be happy with that. You finally landed an elite point guard, even if his arrival does constitute a case of "sloppy seconds."

Funny. Devonte will likely still be there and be the primary PG. Newman will likely be the starting 2-guard and spell Graham for some mins. Could be why KU's unlikely to get one of the 5 star PGs....they'd be VERY unlikely to start. Potentially a decent 4-star Combo. G like Marcus Garrett who they got in on early and has slowly been rising could be the one they'll nab.

 

[khuff80]

Come on zachdeer we been thru this. u guys get I'm gonna use the school more than it used me Carter. Bolden will be back and so will Jeter. 3five star bigs equal no Bamba. Ayton is no lock for Kansas been working hard to get Academics in order so it will be UK and Kansas for him. Yes Kansas recruited him when others dropped him but UK and Duke were his choices early in his recruitment and since duke didnt make his final cut and Kansas seems to not do well with Five star bigs. I'm betting we get Ayton as our stretch 4 and Bamba as our give.

Kansas did just fine w/ Embiid. Wasn't their fault w/ regards to his foot problems.

 

[khuff80]

Yeah Kansas and Kentucky were CLEARLY the two best teams that year.....I agree with Son of Saul congrats on winning a title while starting John Scheyer at PG it's Super impressive (i'm being deadly serious). But the Morris twins and Cole Aldrich or Cousins and Patterson would have abused Zoubeck and the brothers Plumlee.

Ironically, the three (UK, Duke & KU) look lined up to for sure be in the preseason top 4 (along w/ defending champs, 'nova).

 

[Dablueman]

Nope, check your sources because Duke was the overall number 1 seed in 2010. Wall and Cousins' NBA success has nothing to do with how they would have performed in that hypothetical game.
Are u that dumb to not understa
WVU's "bullies" clearly couldn't do much because Duke wiped the floor with WVU that year in a Nova-Oklahoma type beatdown.

Nope, check your sources because Duke was the overall number 1 seed in 2010. Wall and Cousins' NBA success has nothing to do with how they would have performed in that hypothetical game.

WVU's "bullies" clearly couldn't do much because Duke wiped the floor with WVU that year in a Nova-Oklahoma type beatdown.

Oh poor poor zachdeer. What about a fluke bad game don't u understand. At least it was WVa a power conference team not Mercer or Re u saying they were really better than u that year? U poor dude basketball 101 time it's all about Matchups. U guys were a three point shooting team we were not we dominated insides with Patterson and Cousins. WVa a zone team w had a hit our normal average we would have smoked them. But we didn't it happens. You guys had no one that matched up with us inside of our u really so stupid to not know why both Wall and cousins went top 5in the draft cause obviously they performed at a high level. They didn't just get to the league and god waved a wand and said poof u guys are now all stars here is ur hoops talent. U guys had no body who could handle us inside. Basketball 101 is all about Matchups. You had no one who could stay in front of Wall and you guys would have had to double Cousins or play zone and unlike a WVa who had zoned all year most teams who zoned us we destroyed because the teams werent used to it. I mean you are not so dumb that u think because you handled a team earlier in the season that it meant u handled us. I mean UConn beat us for the title one year we had beatten ul that same year and UL beat UConn by like 30 earlier. It's all about Matchups and you guys had no one who could guard us inside or out. I was praying to meet u guys in10. Just like 15 when you had ur cant shoot ft and not play a lick of defense wannabe number one pick. So zachdeer just for laughs tell me who guards who in 10. Who stops cousins who keeps Bledsoe and Wall out of the lane. When you doubled cousins who stops Patterson. 4 number draft choices and all 5 starters and the 6th man all played in the NBA on that team. Tell me how u matched up to beat us.

 

[BlueDevilish4857]

Your thesis is lacking. The "name on the front" of the jersey argument is just my point. Seeding doesn't matter. Historical preeminence doesn't matter. Rankings, to a large degree, don't even matter. What matters, typically, is what teams are playing well in March and what teams have assembled solid amounts of NBA talent. That Baylor team was solid and had two future draft picks (Udoh and Acy), but Baylor constituted the biggest test Duke would face within that entire region; and that - the mere fact that Baylor was the second most significant opponent in that region - is my point. The 2 (Villanova) and 4 (Purdue) seeds in that bracket were comically inept, and their early demises allowed both Duke and Baylor to move forward with ease.

As for 2015 Gonzaga. The best player on their team was Sabonis. Think about that for a moment and let it settle in. The only other player of significance on that team, Wiltjer, wasn't even drafted. UK earned the overall #1, but was placed with the #3, #4, and #5 best teams in the nation on their side of the bracket. Virginia, the #6 best team after they lost their best player, was the only significant team on your entire side of the bracket. That's objectivity, whether you accept it or not. The NCAA wanted to try to ensure a Duke-UK final, but they got too cute and loaded up Kentucky's side, making their road a mine field (that is not to say UK underachieved, because they most certainly did underachieve).

All that said, Duke should get credit for winning the title both years. They played great basketball when it mattered. But for the life of me, how someone could try to reconstruct a narrative that Duke had a difficult path, even from a theoretical best teams advance level, is an inflated and misleading thesis.

I urge to look back at the bracket Kentucky had in '11, '12, '14 (which included you guys before you lost early), and '16. The '14 bracket is comical because it represented a "fair" placement for Duke, only to see Kentucky earn an 8 seed in the same bracket that UK ended up winning.

You guys have yet to have a "how did they put Duke there?" moment in years. I'm not sure how you can intelligently deny this. Even your bracket this year was comical when the NCAA gift-wrapped you a path to the Sweet Sixteen where one of the weakest #1 seeds in years awaited you.

I completely disagree about your point about judging teams based on NBA talent for how good they will do in March. How much NBA talent did the Nova team who won this year have? Josh Hart is their only player who has a chance at playing professionally one day

I've been watching the NCAA tournament for over a decade now and I've found that the best teams tend to have a potent combination of upperclassmen savvy, elite guard play and elite defense.

That Villanova 2010 team had experienced guard play with Scotty Reynolds and Corey Stokes while that Purdue 2010 had an elite defensive guard in E'Twaun Moore (who is a NBA player by the way) and a solid forward in JaJuan Johnson.

Your idea that eventually NBA-level talent will win out the deeper you go in March is very faulty. Guys like Jon Scheyer, Nolan Smith, Russ Smith, Peyton Siva, Marquis Teague, Doron Lamb, Ryan Boatright, Quinn Cook, Ryan Arcidiacano and Daniel Ochefu were all excellent college players who were instrumental to their respective teams' NCAA title runs but in the end are either out of the NBA or will never play in the NBA.

You're a smart guy so I bet you would take a senior backcourt of Peyton Siva and Russ Smith over freshmen De'Aaron Fox and Malik Monk even though the latter have much more NBA potential.

If you disagree with the above statement, then you are the one being biased not me.

 

[ralphdaltonfan]

I completely disagree about your point about judging teams based on NBA talent for how good they will do in March. How much NBA talent did the Nova team who won this year have? Josh Hart is their only player who has a chance at playing professionally one day

I've been watching the NCAA tournament for over a decade now and I've found that the best teams tend to have a potent combination of upperclassmen savvy, elite guard play and elite defense.

That Villanova 2010 team had experienced guard play with Scotty Reynolds and Corey Stokes while that Purdue 2010 had an elite defensive guard in E'Twaun Moore (who is a NBA player by the way) and a solid forward in JaJuan Johnson.

Your idea that eventually NBA-level talent will win out the deeper you go in March is very faulty. Guys like Jon Scheyer, Nolan Smith, Russ Smith, Peyton Siva, Marquis Teague, Doron Lamb, Ryan Boatright, Quinn Cook, Ryan Arcidiacano and Daniel Ochefu were all excellent college players who were instrumental to their respective teams' NCAA title runs but in the end are either out of the NBA or will never play in the NBA.

You're a smart guy so I bet you would take a senior backcourt of Peyton Siva and Russ Smith over freshmen De'Aaron Fox and Malik Monk even though the latter have much more NBA potential.

If you disagree with the above statement, then you are the one being biased not me.

WTF does this have to do with recruiting and the topic? With no dog in this fight, I'll say that Duke does an amazing job with it's program as Kentucky does as well. I do think you are extremely naive if you don't believe that NCAA and media are slightly jaded in how they view each program. No way in hell Duke at 38-0 would have Notre Dame as the #2 in their region and you know how good that team was--they beat Duke twice that season. I also think Duke gets favorable draws and especially in years where Coach K "saves our planet" coaching Team USA. I love my country and want them to win but this narrative that we're all "saved" by Colangelo, Coach K, etc...is laughable.

As for recruiting, Duke will get their share, but the fact is they are in the end of the pool WITH UK now-but many of their fans want to pretend their are "pristine" and don't do anything with any kids who aren't of highest character. Tiresome stance and let's face it--telling 1 and dones about academic importance is laughable. These guys are making their pit stop in college, and want to go to NBA. Period. If they return to school, great for them. If not--they are still good kids and just chose their path but Duke tries to pretend they are offering an Ivy League education. It's for 6-7 months for a 1 and done. Ain't rocket scientists being made in that time. And use of AIN'T was intentional.

 

[BlueDevilish4857]

Oh poor poor zachdeer. What about a fluke bad game don't u understand. At least it was WVa a power conference team not Mercer or Re u saying they were really better than u that year? U poor dude basketball 101 time it's all about Matchups. U guys were a three point shooting team we were not we dominated insides with Patterson and Cousins. WVa a zone team w had a hit our normal average we would have smoked them. But we didn't it happens. You guys had no one that matched up with us inside of our u really so stupid to not know why both Wall and cousins went top 5in the draft cause obviously they performed at a high level. They didn't just get to the league and god waved a wand and said poof u guys are now all stars here is ur hoops talent. U guys had no body who could handle us inside. Basketball 101 is all about Matchups. You had no one who could stay in front of Wall and you guys would have had to double Cousins or play zone and unlike a WVa who had zoned all year most teams who zoned us we destroyed because the teams werent used to it. I mean you are not so dumb that u think because you handled a team earlier in the season that it meant u handled us. I mean UConn beat us for the title one year we had beatten ul that same year and UL beat UConn by like 30 earlier. It's all about Matchups and you guys had no one who could guard us inside or out. I was praying to meet u guys in10. Just like 15 when you had ur cant shoot ft and not play a lick of defense wannabe number one pick. So zachdeer just for laughs tell me who guards who in 10. Who stops cousins who keeps Bledsoe and Wall out of the lane. When you doubled cousins who stops Patterson. 4 number draft choices and all 5 starters and the 6th man all played in the NBA on that team. Tell me how u matched up to beat us.

It's very difficult to understand what you're saying when you don't use proper grammar. Zoubek and Lance Thomas were excellent rebounders and interior defenders for us in 2010 so I believe they would have been able to neutralize Cousins. I certainly don't think he would have gone bonkers on us.

Scheyer was an excellent on-ball defender for us as well so again I don't really think Wall would have been able to exploit him.

Patterson would have been a mismatch for Duke perhaps but at the same time Singler would have been a huge mismatch for UK.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

I completely disagree about your point about judging teams based on NBA talent for how good they will do in March. How much NBA talent did the Nova team who won this year have? Josh Hart is their only player who has a chance at playing professionally one day

I've been watching the NCAA tournament for over a decade now and I've found that the best teams tend to have a potent combination of upperclassmen savvy, elite guard play and elite defense.

That Villanova 2010 team had experienced guard play with Scotty Reynolds and Corey Stokes while that Purdue 2010 had an elite defensive guard in E'Twaun Moore (who is a NBA player by the way) and a solid forward in JaJuan Johnson.

Your idea that eventually NBA-level talent will win out the deeper you go in March is very faulty. Guys like Jon Scheyer, Nolan Smith, Russ Smith, Peyton Siva, Marquis Teague, Doron Lamb, Ryan Boatright, Quinn Cook, Ryan Arcidiacano and Daniel Ochefu were all excellent college players who were instrumental to their respective teams' NCAA title runs but in the end are either out of the NBA or will never play in the NBA.

You're a smart guy so I bet you would take a senior backcourt of Peyton Siva and Russ Smith over freshmen De'Aaron Fox and Malik Monk even though the latter have much more NBA potential.

If you disagree with the above statement, then you are the one being biased not me.

Selectively reading my posts again, eh? I actually pointed out that a good team has to be clicking in March (Villanova) and/or have a handful of legit future pros that can make up the difference (the reality is closer to having NBA talent that comes together at the same time, but that isn't always the case, as noted in some of your examples). It wasn't a mutually exclusive position that I offered, and was meant to construct a framework form which to present Duke as having an easier road to the Final Four in '10 and '15. Also, read my post again for clarity sake and also notice the word "typically" when referring to what types of teams win titles.

Once you aim to clearly respond to my actual points, and not simply to part of my thesis, I'll happily engage further with you on all counts. Also, your usage of a strawman argument is not appreciated. Take the whole of my argument, or leave it alone entirely. I do not wish to debate in terms of positions your create for me. I'm sure you would agree that that's only fair.

 

[_Rooster]

You're a smart guy so I bet you would take a senior backcourt of Peyton Siva and Russ Smith over freshmen De'Aaron Fox and Malik Monk even though the latter have much more NBA potential.

Dumbest post ever to a BBN fan!

 

[BlueDevilish4857]

WTF does this have to do with recruiting and the topic? With no dog in this fight, I'll say that Duke does an amazing job with it's program as Kentucky does as well. I do think you are extremely naive if you don't believe that NCAA and media are slightly jaded in how they view each program. No way in hell Duke at 38-0 would have Notre Dame as the #2 in their region and you know how good that team was--they beat Duke twice that season. I also think Duke gets favorable draws and especially in years where Coach K "saves our planet" coaching Team USA. I love my country and want them to win but this narrative that we're all "saved" by Colangelo, Coach K, etc...is laughable.

As for recruiting, Duke will get their share, but the fact is they are in the end of the pool WITH UK now-but many of their fans want to pretend their are "pristine" and don't do anything with any kids who aren't of highest character. Tiresome stance and let's face it--telling 1 and dones about academic importance is laughable. These guys are making their pit stop in college, and want to go to NBA. Period. If they return to school, great for them. If not--they are still good kids and just chose their path but Duke tries to pretend they are offering an Ivy League education. It's for 6-7 months for a 1 and done. Ain't rocket scientists being made in that time. And use of AIN'T was intentional.

And WVU had a historically good game (at least in light of that particular season for them) from the perimeter against UK, while UK went 4-32 from three. It happens. After all, you guys should know. Just go ask Eastern Michigan, VCU, Lehigh, Mercer, or one of the other hapless underdogs you've gone down in flames to over the years.

Speaking of history, the next time one of your fans or coaches complains about seeding, it will likely mark the first time in the modern history someone from your program felt slighted with their overall seeding. And that is principally because you guys benefit from the system.

I know why it's hard for you to understand, though. In your mind, Coach K can do no wrong. Ignore the upsets and drubbings you suffered in '05, '06, '07, '08, '09, '11, '12, '13, '14, and '16. Instead, continue the narrative you've worked out in your biased mind - one that depicts Coach K as the most adaptable, brilliant basketball mind in the history of the sport.

He's an incredible coach, but your bias apparently won't even allow you to realize how much that position as a top 3 historic coach has actually benefitted him from a seeding level. People would probably respect and acknowledge your views a lot more if you were capable of more objectivity. Sadly, for you, some of your otherwise good points are getting lost in the mixture of the overt bias your spewing.

UK fans are conveniently forgetting that Duke was put in the "Region of Death" in 2013 with MSU and Louisville. I know Kentucky fans probably weren't watching the tournament much that year since that was the NIT season but Duke had to face 2 of the 3 other major national title contendors that year in the 2nd weekend: MSU and Louisville.

Duke in 2013 faced a heavily underseeded 7 seed Creighton team (#18 according to Pomeroy and #16 according to Sagarin) who should have been a 5 seed in the 2nd round. After that, we had to play national championship contender MSU in the Sweet 16 and eventual national champions and the clear #1 team in the country Louisville in the Elite Eight.

Duke absolutely got hosed by the committee that year.

 

[BlueDevilish4857]

Dumbest post ever to a BBN fan!

It doesn't matter if they are "Loserville" players as you like to call them, the fact is there is a 90%+ chance that they are a better backcourt in college which is all that matters.

 

[Willy4UK]

You can keep spitting your BS all you want, Silver Spoons. Nobody here is buying it.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

UK fans are conveniently forgetting that Duke was put in the "Region of Death" in 2013 with MSU and Louisville. I know Kentucky fans probably weren't watching the tournament much that year since that was the NIT season but Duke had to face 2 of the 3 other major national title contendors that year in the 2nd weekend: MSU and Louisville.

Duke in 2013 faced a heavily underseeded 7 seed Creighton team (#18 according to Pomeroy and #16 according to Sagarin) who should have been a 5 seed in the 2nd round. After that, we had to play national championship contender MSU in the Sweet 16 and eventual national champions and the clear #1 team in the country Louisville in the Elite Eight.

Duke absolutely got hosed by the committee that year.

"Hosed?

You had the AP #2, #9, #13, #17, and #19 teams in your region (not counting Duke at #6). That's actually a somewhat fair draw.

The real bottom line is that the committee has set up your true title contenders for comparatively easier paths, however, especially when compared to Kentucky, which has on three occasions had the overall #1 seed in their bracket (essentially, every year UK hasn't earned a #1 seed, the committee has put the hardest team in UK's bracket). UK, even when it's had #1 seeds, has had hard draws, having to get through a bracket that featured multiple lottery and first round picks in 2012, and the #3, #4, and #5 teams on its side of the bracket, a "reward' for an undefeated season. Even so, UK managed to make the Final Four in two of those three years when the cards were stacked against them, unlike the one year you can faintly draw upon -2013- when Louisville beat Duke by 22 points in a historical beatdown that exposed everything that was wrong with Coach K's pre-OAD system.

Obviously, feel free to disagree, but I'm curious - how did you truly feel when the '10 and '15 selection show revealed to you your potential path to the Final Four? You had to be giddy as a school girl.

 

[crittel56]

It doesn't matter if they are "Loserville" players as you like to call them, the fact is there is a 90%+ chance that they are a better backcourt in college which is all that matters.

During their time at UL, the Siva/Smith backcourt went a combined 1-6 against UK's backcourts lead mostly by Freshman. Their only win was a three point win in Louisville against UK's NIT team. So no I'd take any UK Freshman led back court over Siva/Smith.

 

[YaySports]

Scheyer would neutralize Wall and Zoubek would neutralize Cousins? Conversation over.

 

[bigbluedon]

Duke was the best team in the country in 2009-2010, only a fool would deny that.

We won the ACC Regular Season, won the ACC Tournament and were ranked #1 by Ken Pomeroy and #1 by Jeff Sagarin.

UK would have been underdogs vs. Duke had you guys just taken care of business and played us in the Final Four.

http://kenpom.com/index.php?y=2010

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/ncaab/sagarin/2010/teams/

You are a complete moron if you think Duke was the best team in 2010..UK would have beaten them like a rented mule if we had played in the final Four. You people are so delusional..Why don't you go back to your own little world and dream there..Geez.