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More talent than 2011's Final Four team already

MdWIldcat55

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Dec 9, 2007
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Whatever happens with Murray, Diallo, Brown and company, I think the Kentucky roster already compares favorably with 2011, and has a shot at a terrific season. It won't have the shooting ability of that team (though going into the year, Lamb wasn't considered a deadly shooter) but it is deeper in reliable talent, should have an edge in team quickness, and should have a stronger front court. Each team had a top 1-2 freshman and another in the top 10. Each team had some guys who had played in the shadow of NBA-level talent, and were ready to emerge.

2011 back court: Knight, Lamb, Miller, Liggins -- We know Knight had a terrific freshman year, Lamb shot a good percentage, and Liggins had a strong tournament. Miller wasn't Miller of his senior year, but a solid player.

2016 back court: Ulis, Briscoe, Mulder, Matthews, Hawkins -- Ulis showed flashes of brilliance as a freshman and seems to have that indefinable quality of all special players. Briscoe has really impressed me in the post-season all star games, and was rated the top 1-2 PG in the class for good reason. Mulder's stats say one thing: He can shoot the 3. That skill usually translates regardless of the competition (Lamb and Booker both shot BETTER against SEC competition than in HS. Mulder has done it at the top of the JUCO level.) Hawkins -- May or may not develop a shot, but a reliable defender and back up. I personally feel Matthews is underrated, and will be a good defender and a capable scorer.

2011 front court: Jorts, Jones, Vargas -- Jorts was much more than we'd hoped, especially in the tournament. Jones, as a freshman, was probably a little less than advertised, and had a lot of quiet games, but was a major talent. Vargas - good for a couple minutes when foul trouble threatened.

2016 front court: Skal, Lee, Poythress, Willis -- Skal looks capable of playing the role of star freshman. Probably less of a defensive presence than Davis and Noel, he looks like the most polished scorer of those three. Guys who are rated the #1player in the class got that ranking for a reason. Lee will have to step up, and no reason to think he can't. He's an athletically gifted 6'10'' player who'll be in his third year in Kentucky's system. Poythress was on the verge of a break out year before he was injured, in my opinion. I'm going to be optimistic and assume he'll be 100 percent and even more hungry to finally prove he was the most athletically gifted forward in his class. Should be a defensive demon at a minimum, and able to attack the basket. Willis is a question mark, like Jorts was in 2011. Not predicting stardom for him, but the talent is there to contribute. Major concern would be a lack of beef inside. Maybe Wynyard plays the second half. He looked like a budding Jorts in the Nike Classic.

Cal seems to prefer teams with tight rotations and a guard or two who can break down defenses the way Ulis has and Briscoe will. He had that in 2011, and in the tournament the Cats bounced back from a disappointment in 2010.
 
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I agree, OP. And it looks like Isaiah Briscoe may be the same kind of clutch warrior that Brandon Knight was for us. I hope Matthews turns out to be the shooter we need who can get his shot whenever and wherever he wants it.

Go 'Cats !
 
I agree. I would like to see us add a 3 point shooter and a physical inside presence but I think we have a talented team with what we have right now. One big concern with the thin roster would be injuries. Also, I believe this could be a very good up tempo team but the lack of depth could force us to play a little slower.
 
It's not so much the amount of talent in college basketball as much as how that talent fits together. That's what makes basketball so great.

That's 2011 team had 3-4 guys on the floor at all times who could shoot. Hell, even Harrellson was a good shooter. That's how they became a really good team. They could stretch you out, opening things up for penetration and inside dishes for dunks.

This upcoming team has a hole on the wing. Mulder should fill that a bit, but we still really need a surefire scorer. We need Murray or we need Willis to really step up. With that said, we have some tremendous strengths, too. Nobody will have a better PG combo than us. Both are great playmakers who can also score a bit. We have the NBA 2016 #1 pick anchoring us inside on offense and defense. He's a supreme talent. We also have two athletic finishers in Lee and Poythress. We can protect the rim.
 
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I generally hate the "It all depends on one guy" analysis, but to me so much depends on Poythress.

If we get Bahamas Poythress, Kentucky will be fine assuming we sign at least one more (and I think we will).

The Poythress we've seen for most of his career and I think we're going to have issues--to score, to defend certain kinds of players, and to rebound out of area.

His development is huge.
 
Not disagreeing with your assessment, but remember: Going into the year, after Kanter was nixed, we thought the 2011 team had an even bigger hole -- in the 5 spot. Will Mulder or Matthews or even Willis be the 'Jorts' of 2016 -- the guy who fills a perceived hole by stepping up to a challenge? Cal has a way of bringing that out in some people.

Oh, absolutely. That's a great point and why I'm hoping guys like Willis and Hawkins get an opportunity. Going into that year, many didn't care if Liggins left and had completely written Harrelson off.
 
That team had guys with clear roles and fit their positions. Knight was the 1, Lamb was a 2, Liggins was a 2/3 lockdown perimeter defender, Miller was a 3, Jones was the 4, Harrelson was the 5 with the body to bang with a Jared Sullinger.

Next years team has 2 points in Ulis and Briscoe and Ulis could have a real problem guarding biggers guards like we seen towards the end of last year. We have Matthews and potentially Mulder at the wings. Not sure we can count on both or either of them being as good or better than Lamb, Liggins and Miller. Poy and Lee at the 4 is great. I love Skal and he has enormous potential but can be bang with the bigger centers. Also as a team we could really struggle to shoot and score. I'm not saying we will be a bad team but not sure they can be as good as that team was down the stretch. If we can add someone with some bulk down low and another wing that can shoot the sky's the limit.
 
Remains to be seen. You are expecting a bunch of high school kids and guys who have never been asked to do much to come in and make a significant leap. We have talent, but as we've seen, that doesn't necessarily mean coming out of the gate as a good team. People shouldn't be surprised if we lose close to 7-10 games by the end of the season.
 
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We were expecting a bunch of high school guys with comparable ratings to come in and make a significant leap in 2011 -- and they did. We were also asking guys like Harrelson, Liggins and, to a degree Miller, to step up big time, and they did. I agree that UK will lose its share of games through February next year -- maybe as many as the eight regular season games the 2011 team lost.

I'm not really making a prediction. I'm saying 2016 has more raw talent. The challenge is the same -- freshmen like Skal and Briscoe and Matthews have to make the same quick adjustment freshmen like Knight and Lamb and Jones made. Veterans like Poythress and Lee and Ulis and Willis and Hawkins have to seize the moment the way veterans like Liggins and Harrelson and Miller did.

But -- this idea that trolls and the weak-hearted are spreading that UK is crippled by the roster losses is no more true than it was when Wall, Cousins, Bledsoe, Patterson, Orton Dodson, Harris and Stevenson left. I'm actually excited about seeing next year's team work through the challenges, and, we hope, emerge as a team to be reckoned with in March. I'll bet Cal is too.
I'm not panicking. I guess I'm just trying to keep people's expectations in check, even though I know it is a waste of time. This board is going to be insufferable next season when we've lost 3-5 games by the middle of the year. I understand we aren't going to be really good every year, especially when you have to deal with as many unknowns as we have to. It remains to be seen how good any of these guys are. I don't expect to be horrible, but I think you are getting really ahead of yourself if you feel we are really good already.
 
No kidding in that it remains to be seen. Comparing 2015-2016's back-court to the 2010-2011 team is childish and ridiculous. Wish I had a time machine to go back to 2011.
 
Skal gets in foul trouble or even needs a break, what is our option? Lee? Not big enough? Poy? Even smaller.
 
You can't compare high school kids that have not set a foot on the court to be the foundation to a FF.
Vargas was very good in HS and looked really good but look what he did in college. Knight was pretty much the #1 player in HS for a lot of his career Briscoe is not on his level and Ulis has his own problems to deal with like getting his shot off in traffic, finishing at the rim and being a consistent scorer. As a passer he is much better than Knight no question. Liggins and Miller are both much better than Matthews Lamb was a pleasant surprise and hopefully Mulder can be a 47% shooter but I wouldn't hold my breath.
That team lost several games that year but many of those losses were by a point or 2 in some lop sided referring.

Just let these kids come in and do their thing before you anoint them as talented as this or that team was. Much like everybody saying this last team being better than the '96 team. It wasn't and now everybody is all ready to jump off a bridge.
If we land Diallo and Murray I would feel better about having a team that is capable of being a storm come march.
Hopefully we will be a team who inflicts our will upon our opponent instead of playing their game.
 
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I don't believe that. Knight and TJ will both play in the league a long time. Jorts played for a couple years as did Miller, Lamb, and Liggings.

Skal seems like the only one on this team who will be in the league a long time.
 
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I don't believe that. Knight and TJ will both play in the league a long time. Jorts played for a couple years as did Miller, Lamb, and Liggings.

Skal seems like the only one on this team who will be in the league a long time.
Briscoe will be a pro. Lee, Poy, Ulis and possibly Matthews will be drafted and at least hang around the league for a while too. And keep in mind college and NBA are different. I think Ulis will be a great college player, despite probably being too small to be a star in the NBA. But as a freshman last year he showed incredible decision-making & passing and the ability to score from both long-range and mid range, despite often deferring his shot to others.

I'm not saying this team is better or worse then 2011, just saying don't sell this team that we have now short. Like you, I also hope we had one or two more major contributors, but even if we don't I believe we have enough talent to be serious contenders.
 
It's not so much the amount of talent in college basketball as much as how that talent fits together. That's what makes basketball so great.

That's 2011 team had 3-4 guys on the floor at all times who could shoot. Hell, even Harrellson was a good shooter. That's how they became a really good team. They could stretch you out, opening things up for penetration and inside dishes for dunks.

This upcoming team has a hole on the wing. Mulder should fill that a bit, but we still really need a surefire scorer. We need Murray or we need Willis to really step up. With that said, we have some tremendous strengths, too. Nobody will have a better PG combo than us. Both are great playmakers who can also score a bit. We have the NBA 2016 #1 pick anchoring us inside on offense and defense. He's a supreme talent. We also have two athletic finishers in Lee and Poythress. We can protect the rim.



This
 
Maybe so, but that 2011 team lost a bunch during the season. And that team made some unbelievable shots in that tourney. A Brandon Knight missed layup against Princeton sends UK home in the first round and not too many people would of been surprised. I'll go in w/ less than stellar expectations.
 
It's not so much the amount of talent in college basketball as much as how that talent fits together. That's what makes basketball so great.

That's 2011 team had 3-4 guys on the floor at all times who could shoot. Hell, even Harrellson was a good shooter. That's how they became a really good team. They could stretch you out, opening things up for penetration and inside dishes for dunks.

This upcoming team has a hole on the wing. Mulder should fill that a bit, but we still really need a surefire scorer. We need Murray or we need Willis to really step up. With that said, we have some tremendous strengths, too. Nobody will have a better PG combo than us. Both are great playmakers who can also score a bit. We have the NBA 2016 #1 pick anchoring us inside on offense and defense. He's a supreme talent. We also have two athletic finishers in Lee and Poythress. We can protect the rim.

That was the key that gets overlooked.....from '3': BK - 37.7% Lamb - 48.6% Miller - 44.3% Liggins - 39%.....Not to mention Miller, Lamb, and Knight were all nearly 80%+ FT shooters

Cal always seems to like athletic guys first who can play defense rather than placing emphasis on shooting
 
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Fans are putting too much stock in a player that sat out for a year, three players that Cal refused to play and now thinking we're a final four team.

Ulis is a great guard, but will Alex be skittish or come out and play? Can Lee play 30 minutes without fouling out and will Willis get burned due to poor defense? Hawkins plays with a lot of heart but can he put together an effective jump shot? The jury is out for me on this team.

I'm not buying it until product is on the floor.
 
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Fans are putting too much stock in a player that sat out for a year, three players that Cal refused to play and now thinking we're a final four team. Ulis is a great guard, will Alex be skittish, and the jury is out for the rest of the team.

I'm not buying it until product is on the floor.


Agree, there are a lot of expectations more so than proven success this year.

Ulis will be solid.
Poy - how does he respond to injury and do we get the confident Alex who exerts himself or the same guy we have had?
Lee - can we get any offense from him, will he hit a decent number from the line, will he not be as lost on both ends?
Hawk - has his shot improved enough to prevent the 4 on 5 defense we have seen?
Willis - will he make bball the #1 priority?
Skal - can he produce against older, bigger competition?
Briscoe - can he provide 2G scoring?
Matthews - offensive game question marks?

Mulder - will his game translate to D1


All of these can be achieved, hope to sign a couple more though.
 
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Well, many are acting like Poy was "all-world" before the injury. But, so many here were also saying he should be on the second platoon because Lyles was better. So, how he will play is a guess. I do like that he has a lot of experience and yes...potential. But, he now has to be consistent. Skal looks very good but isn't the most physical but I think he will be a top player. Matthews we simply have no idea he was pretty much a non-factor in the Jordan Classic. The good news was he was deemed good enough to be there. Briscoe and Ulis playing together seems like a real positive but Briscoe as a Freshman will have a lot to learn. Mulder, was an after-thought and anyone who is saying otherwise is full of it. He was plan B when we lost out on some targeted recruits. No one has a clue how he will be against Division 1 defenses. Lee has shown no offensive skills other than put backs and isn't very physical. I sure hope he works really hard in the off season. Hawkins can be steady but certainly isn't going to be a superstar expectation. So...........in my opinion if we don't get another really top recruit or transfer in the front court like Brown or Diallo, we are going to be in trouble.

These current players are going to win on the road? As I said earlier, Skal in foul trouble is a huge problem. Plus, there are no lock down outside shooters either. Maybe the team will be very good and all might mesh. Or, maybe the team will be less of equal distribution and focus on offense as Skal, Briscoe, and then Ulis with Poy and Lee to clean up on the boards. Again, I think we really need one more very talented physical front court player. I will completely change my view is we land Diallo as it would completely change our dynamics. Otherwise, dream on.
 
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I don't believe that. Knight and TJ will both play in the league a long time. Jorts played for a couple years as did Miller, Lamb, and Liggings.

Skal seems like the only one on this team who will be in the league a long time.

'o_O:eek::mad: WTF are you even talking bout dude . Briscoe is a 10 year player . Ulis damn close . Poythress is a 1st round talent when healthy . lee the same . And that is if we add no one .
 
Also IMO Cal does some his best coaching when he is not expected to win. There is no doubt the pressure of expectations really gets to him. I'm looking forward to this next season.
 
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'o_O:eek::mad: WTF are you even talking bout dude . Briscoe is a 10 year player . Ulis damn close . Poythress is a 1st round talent when healthy . lee the same . And that is if we add no one .


Agree Briscoe is first round.

Lee and Poy have to improve a ton before they are close to top 30.

Ulis, don't see 1st round ever.

Hope these guys prove me wrong.
 
i'll reserve my expectations until I see some product on the floor that warrants FF talk until then I'm gonna keep my yapper shut.

If Skal is a 20 ppg type of guy and Poy averages around 12 and Ulis 8-10 and gets 6 assists then I'm gonna be feeling my oats some. I think another 35 ppg could be had from all the other guys on the team.
 
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Um....2011 was an anomaly. We couldn't play teams on the road in SEC play to save our lives and then at precisely the right moment (the last minute) everything clicked together and Cal had his best coaching run since UMASS in 96'. That's like asking to see a shooting star again. If the 2011 team had had ANY injuries to a starter that season we would have been in so much trouble. It was a remarkable team that is a great reminder that really what is important is when you play your best basketball of the season but I would prefer to not re-live the struggles of that team again next year. We may not have a choice and that's fine we are spoiled and a year where we are a 3,4,5 seed wouldn't be the end of the world. But let's not forget that 2011 was a very lucky year for us when you compare that Final Four team to the other Cal final four teams. Even two years ago the talent level and amount of quality players of the team dwarves what we had in 2011.
 
There is no such thing as luck. Cal has been to 4 final fours in the last 5 years. Every year with a completely different team. Coach K is the only coach even in the discussion with Cal because he has two titles in the past 5 years. But he also had some horrible flameouts too.
 
We need another elite shooter/scorer. If we can get Murray, then we are golden.

Ulis, Briscoe, and Murray can all handle, penetrate, and pass. We would have three PGs. Two of them are big (6'4, 6'5), which means they can defend the 2 and 3 spots.

Murray is a deadly shooter.

Ulis is a great shooter.

Briscoe is a decent shooter.

Matthews is a good shooter off the bench.

If Poythress and Labissiere can shoot, then we will have great spacing for the guards to penetrate.

This team is coming together, we just need Murray.

Throw in Diallo and we have a very good shot at the Final Four and another title.
 
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The 2011 team seemed to peak at the right time. Should have won it all. No one can know how next year's team will turn out (don't even know what players we end up with) but if given the chance I'd take the 2011 team all day long. We figure to have deficiencies next year that we haven't had since the NIT team.
 
There is no such thing as luck. Cal has been to 4 final fours in the last 5 years. Every year with a completely different team. Coach K is the only coach even in the discussion with Cal because he has two titles in the past 5 years. But he also had some horrible flameouts too.
If we replayed that tournament again we probably don't make it that far. We almost lost to freakin Princeton in the first round. That's what people mean. Same thing with the 2014 season.
 
That was the key that gets overlooked.....from '3': BK - 37.7% Lamb - 48.6% Miller - 44.3% Liggins - 39%.....Not to mention Miller, Lamb, and Knight were all nearly 80%+ FT shooters

Cal always seems to like athletic guys first who can play defense rather than placing emphasis on shooting
The 2011 team was a good 3 point shooting team but not a good shooting team overall. They shot .488% on 2 point attempts and #135 and the overall % was .459 and #59. They were #111 in free throws at 71%
 
Skal might have more potential than anyone on that 2011 team but we won't have one single player that is as good of a college player as Brandon Knight, Terrance Jones, or Doron Lamb. Plus no one on the wing as good as Miler or Liggins.
 
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And if you replayed the tournament last year, no way UCONN wins. You could say say that about any team in any year.
Not about any team. Anything can happen in any given game, but with multiple attempts, the best teams would show themselves by winning more often than the others. That's what makes the tournament fun though, the best teams don't always win. I'm just saying that this is probably a bad example of why not to worry about next year, because that team was pretty lucky to have the success they did. This team could be as good or better and not make it as far in the postseason. I don't think the statement is true to begin with, which is what I was originally trying to say.
 
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