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Is Tubman Gonna Play Or Not

I am going to say this a different way and maybe communicate a little better. Ray Larson is the most respected Prosecutor in this state. We are lucky in Fayette County and Kentucky to have him. His office has been recognized many times both statewide and nationally for their professionalism and competence. They are the office other Commonwealth Attorney's offices go to for advice when they have thorny problems.

To think that some professor types( who may or may not have been to a seminar of the subject) on a committee can second guess them is ludicrous. Their standard to the grand jury was less than the 50.1% standard in a civil case.

My wife and I have been very dedicated to our university and have much of our time,talent and treasure tied up in it. I frankly will be very disappointed if this young man gets railroaded for any reason other than if he did it.

Larson's folks concluded their was no reason to believe her version of the facts over his and that should be the end of it.

If the answer here is that Larson's job was to do the right thing and the committee's job was to do the politically correct thing regardless of the harm and injustice down to a young man's career I really don't have any respect for the committee,

Lou, you keep stating the same thing over and over yet appear to gloss over very real possibility...that Ray didn't want the GJ to indict LT and therefore presented the case very weekly.

My wife and the wife of a well-respected DA in a major metropolitan southeastern city who has tried literally 1000’s of cases are good friends and sorority sisters. Through that relationship I’ve come to know “Tom” very well. We were in the city where they live 2 weeks ago and went to dinner together. While the wives caught up on their gossip and chit-chat I talked to Tom among other things…cases like Tubman’s. Tom says he sees literally 100 of these cases every year and that indictments are rarely sought in cases where the defendant has no prior history, that it involves a couple that has a romantic history and that the only disputed evidence are the opposing words of the couple. He also suggested that had LT been an anonymous student that the case would have never gone to the GJ. While no one would take notice if charges were dropped from Sammy Student, doing so with anyone of celebrity makes for a messier situation. It is cleaner to take the case to the GJ, present the case weakly and pray for no indictment.

I asked Tom directly, “Have you ever failed to get an indictment on a case you wanted to try?”. “Never”.


Your prejudice in this case is blinding you to the endless possibilities that exist. On one hand you speak to how well respected Ray is and say “They know that they have tremendous power and can indict anyone.Thus the old adage a prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich .They use their power and use it wisely. They do not abuse it.”.

There, you said it yourself…they could indict anyone. They didn’t think that this case was worth risking sending a young man to prison.

That doesn’t mean they don’t believe one party or the other. Perhaps a deal was worked out behind the scenes that the DA wouldn’t seek an indictment in exchange for simply removing LT from campus. A deal that saved UK and UK football from having the stain and negative publicity that would follow any trial and save LT from any future civil actions that could follow. Maybe there was no deal but Ray had a good idea what the SRB would do based on other similar cases and that was "good enough" for him. Nobody goes to prision, the taxpayer's money can be spent on trials of more substance.

The facts are that we don’t know all of the facts and therefore to draw conclusions like someone being “railroaded”, or base your support for an organization based on the actions taken by a committee is very myopic.

Let me add one thing... you said; "Larson's folks concluded their was no reason to believe her version of the facts over his and that should be the end of it. ". Any layer worth their salt will tell you that it doesn't matter what they believe, it only matters what you can prove. Not indicting most likely has zero to do with if he believes the woman or not.
 
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legal folks here can correct me, but I don't think that is true. the case was not ended, it was determined that at this time there was not evidence present enough for trial. if something new were to be discovered or someone come forward, it could be picked up again.

Strictly speaking - true. There is no statute of limitations. So in theory, he can be indicted 20 years from now.

In practice - its dead. The case presented was all the case they'll ever have. There wont be a key eye witness come forward. No new DNA evidence will be located. It was, and always will be, a he said/she said case with basically all other evidence in his favor.
 
Does anyone know of another UK student that has been charged with rape, the charges dropped and either not kicked out of school or readmitted? If so It really helps Tubman's case. Thanks
 
Tubman has removed all references to UK from his Twitter profile and has linked his HS highlight video. Make of it what you will...
 
Does anyone know of another UK student that has been charged with rape, the charges dropped and either not kicked out of school or readmitted? If so It really helps Tubman's case. Thanks
Lou, you would also need to know the circumstances of why charges were dropped. If they were dropped because it could be proven to be a case of misidentification or because the woman changes her story... those would be far different cases.
Regardless, it is very doubtful that you would ever know of any SRB decision regarding a student unless that info came from the student. The school would be prohibited from releasing that information due to privacy laws...which is why we have never seen any comment from UK on this matter. Unfortunatnly we will only know when and/or if LT announces what he is doing, or shows up on a roster at UK or elsewhere.
 
Tubman has removed all references to UK from his Twitter profile and has linked his HS highlight video. Make of it what you will...
But his profile pic is the same from a summer practice last year and he still follows tons of UK things. So I don't see how you can read into that either way. I don't think recruits/players intentionally add or remove content as a true indication of current scenarios. I don't think they care that much. He probably just removed it since as of now he isn't a "UK player".
 
Tom says he sees literally 100 of these cases every year and that indictments are rarely sought in cases where the defendant has no prior history, that it involves a couple that has a romantic history and that the only disputed evidence are the opposing words of the couple. He also suggested that had LT been an anonymous student that the case would have never gone to the GJ. While no one would take notice if charges were dropped from Sammy Student, doing so with anyone of celebrity makes for a messier situation. It is cleaner to take the case to the GJ, present the case weakly and pray for no indictment.

That is the point so many people on here are trying to make. Of course Tom and no other D.A. are going to take one of these cases to court because not only do they have no proof, the cases reek of reasonable doubt. In this particular case, it is more like probable doubt based on the very limited info that is known. It doesn't mean she is making it up but there has to be something more than the word of a questionable witness with a possible axe to grind. As you said, Larson probably only took it to the grand jury for show. There is no more proof that Tubman did it than there is that you masturbated last night. Nobody wants a rapist on the team or on campus but there has to be better than a 50/50 chance that he did it before you can justify penalizing him. There is not. The outrage is all about this assemblage of students and faculty essentially convicting and sentencing this kid based on the non-evidence that these type cases inherently lack. The fact that he is a high profile football player doesn't make him anymore or less guilty but it does make many more people aware of "guilty until proven innocent" mentality on college campuses when the accused is on the wrong side of political correctness.
 
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That is the point so many people on here are trying to make. Of course Tom and no other D.A. are going to take one of these cases to court because not only do they have no proof, the cases reek of reasonable doubt. In this particular case, it is more like probable doubt based on the very limited info that is known. It doesn't mean she is making it up but there has to be something more than the word of a questionable witness with a possible axe to grind. As you said, Larson probably only took it to the grand jury for show. There is no more proof that Tubman did it than there is that you masturbated last night. Nobody wants a rapist on the team or on campus but there has to be better than a 50/50 chance that he did it before you can justify penalizing him. There is not. The outrage is all about this assemblage of students and faculty essentially convicting and sentencing this kid based on the non-evidence that these type cases inherently lack. The fact that he is a high profile football player doesn't make him anymore or less guilty but it does make many more people aware of "guilty until proven innocent" mentality on college campuses when the accused is on the wrong side of political correctness.
Well said.
 
Excellent posts, loucatfan, some people just don't get it. As I stated, on the surface Jameis didn't even have to face the possibility of an indictment and wasn't kicked out of school and he is still being sued. And will probably end up paying in some way to make it go away, like the NCAA did with Tarkanian in his lawsuit against them.

There could be a combination of motives for the charges, getting even and money. Not a lot to lose, they were breaking up anyway it seems And of course maybe she was wronged, but you can't go around ruining peoples lives just because someone accuses them of something. And I still have to LOL at Fuzz saying it might turn out to be the best thing that ever happened to him, I don't like those odds at all.

And remember these are the same professors that refused to LOAN back football SOME of the money that it had GIVEN them over the years to build the scoreboards. But I always thought it was funny that mitch couldn't come up with the money until two years after their scheduled replacement but found new money in a day or so when they protested the loan.

In short, a lot of resentment by some of the academic community about the emphasis on the sports part of the University------and I have to agree with them that it is overemphasized. But it does bring in a lot of money, directly AND indirectly, they were foolish is that case, and quite possibly in this one also. I don't think they are bringing in a lot of donations with their stand on this.
 
Probably this is gonna turn just like the other thread into an endless circular debate about sexual assault and how it is treated differently these days by colleges as compared to our justice system rather than much factual information on Tubman's actual status or outlook on his situation.

Weather we like it or not, and I'm sure 100% on here and UK sports fan in general do not, the girl still exists.
And she is still a UK student
And she still says a former UK student who is looking to enroll again raped her
And the local authorities looked at the accusations, they did not determine one way or another who's story is most accurate
And in our current time in our society the issue of sexual assaults, especially on college campuses, especially by athletes, especially by football players, is one of the biggest talking points by powerful national media & politicians

Everything about it sucks and is unfair. UK's administration is in-between a rock & a hard place, i don't view them as the badguy some of you do. Don't allow Tubman to come back, and they piss off UK football coaches, UK football players, UK football fans.

Allow Tuman to come back, the girl & her family might raise holy hell that a rapist is being given favorable treatment because he is a football player. UK would piss off U.S. Senators, national media outlets, Justice department, and the President. Then boycotts, calls for national funding cuts, pressure on corporate sponsors to drop us, cries for females to transfer out of UK or not enroll there in the fall.

think I'm exaggerating on the risk UK is facing? then you have not been paying attention to the current feeding frenzy our society has become, where people look for the latest politically incorrect outrage and then rush to burn the perpetrator at the stake. Ask the little pizza restaurant in Indiana. Or better yet the entire state of Indiana who had the whole country seemingly jump on them with 2 feet for a silly little law that meant nothing.

You sound like an informed person of the law, etc. Could I ask you (or anyone else who knows a good amount of the judicial system) this simple question? The question is, if an an accusation of rape by a person on another is thrown out, can that person go around and still call that person a rapist and avoid a lawsuit themselves? I mean, it would only seems like they could or anyone could go on any show or write a book with falsehoods about others.
 
Ha, I'm no lawyer or know anything about the court system other than what is said on the 6 pm news. But I'd say you can sue anyone in civil court for any damn thing in this country in general. As has been referenced in this thread, the girl who accused Jameis Winston is suing him & Florida State. The guy wrongfully accused by the mattress hauling girl is suing the school they both attend.

So, IN THEORY, in this case it would be possible I guess for Tubman to sue the girl. But for what purpose, and what solution? Yeah his rep has obviously been damaged, and the prospects for his college football career along with future chances at playing professionally. But other lawyers would say he can easily play college football anywhere else in the country outside of UK. And any future NFL career can't be proven to be a sure thing. Oh and proving rape didn't happen is probably just as hard if not harder to prove that it DID.

Besides what kind of money does just an average gal from Louisville attending UK have anyway, chances are she & her fam are just middle class folks.
 
Could sue for defamation but would be crazy to do so. Not worth him testifying under oath again. Also he'd have the same problem proving his case that the prosecution had proving theirs. Finally even if he won it would be year or so down the road, and the girl probably has no money.

At this point either sue the school, or move on. If I were him I'd move on.
 
You sound like an informed person of the law, etc. Could I ask you (or anyone else who knows a good amount of the judicial system) this simple question? The question is, if an an accusation of rape by a person on another is thrown out, can that person go around and still call that person a rapist and avoid a lawsuit themselves? I mean, it would only seems like they could or anyone could go on any show or write a book with falsehoods about others.

It's actually a complicated question. Technically you can sue anyone for slander for just about any reason you want. So yes he could legally bring a case against her. The issue is that in a slander suit she is the defendant and Tubman will have the burden to prove his innocence in the rape case. That's nearly impossible to do.So for a practical answer to the question then No is the answer. He can't go after her and she can continue to level charges publicly. She can write books about him being a rapist and even make public speeches about it and there's not much he can do about it.

Off the topic there are a few concepts that should be stated based on the thousands of threads regarding this case. First off Tubman has no case against her at this moment. So everyone that is stating that he should go after this girl needs to stop it. Even if he has a small chance of winning the damage to his public image will follow him for the rest of his life. Not to mention that he hasn't been acquitted of the so he can be charged again at any time. Filing a civil suit with him being the plaintive would change the rules of discovery and she might get access to evidence that she didn't have access to when Tubman was protected by the rules regarding a criminal case. He could literally open himself up to being convicted of the rape charge if he tries to go after her.

Second he has no case against UK so all the foolishness on this board that he should sue UK needs to stop. UK can expel him for just about any reason they want. Even a dress code violation, as if UK has one, would be enough to be defensible in court. It should also be pointed out that there isn't a student committee in the history of UK that has more sway with the university than does Mark Stoops. If Stoops were to walk into the office of Eli Capilouto and demand that Loyd be reinstated does any believe that Loyd wouldn't be? I am pretty sure that Stoops could pull that off. The fact that it hasn't happened implies to me that Stoops has chosen not to "pull strings" in this case. It looks to me that Stoops is letting this play out and see if Loyd earns his way back. The rest of us should do the same.
 
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The one scenerio must be a joke, can you imagine the friends Stoops would make in the academic community by demanding that he be allowed to play?

Not a problem at UL probably, but then this case would have never been on anybody's agenda at UL.
 
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Excellent posts, loucatfan, some people just don't get it. As I stated, on the surface Jameis didn't even have to face the possibility of an indictment and wasn't kicked out of school and he is still being sued. And will probably end up paying in some way to make it go away, like the NCAA did with Tarkanian in his lawsuit against them.

There could be a combination of motives for the charges, getting even and money. Not a lot to lose, they were breaking up anyway it seems And of course maybe she was wronged, but you can't go around ruining peoples lives just because someone accuses them of something. And I still have to LOL at Fuzz saying it might turn out to be the best thing that ever happened to him, I don't like those odds at all.

And remember these are the same professors that refused to LOAN back football SOME of the money that it had GIVEN them over the years to build the scoreboards. But I always thought it was funny that mitch couldn't come up with the money until two years after their scheduled replacement but found new money in a day or so when they protested the loan.

In short, a lot of resentment by some of the academic community about the emphasis on the sports part of the University------and I have to agree with them that it is overemphasized. But it does bring in a lot of money, directly AND indirectly, they were foolish is that case, and quite possibly in this one also. I don't think they are bringing in a lot of donations with their stand on this.
I was with a number of UK professors yesterday and while I steered clear of this topic I was amazed to learn that several of them had never been to a UK football or basketball game including one who is very well regarded in his field and has been at UK over twenty years. Yep, they live in a different world from those of us on this board.
 
Oh that attitude is no surprise, has been present at UK on the academic side for years now. Not only are many there not a fan of the University's sports, they view it as the enemy, as a drain on money and time and attention that should be going to the classrooms and labs and greenhouses and chalkboards. Basketball has its powerful allies that shields it, not so for football. It is why there is such hostility towards expansions or money spent on football facilities, it is why a yearly late summer tradition of 2 or 3 UK football players turning up academically ineligible.

Having said that,
If Stoops were to walk into the office of Eli Capilouto and demand that Loyd be reinstated does any believe that Loyd wouldn't be? I am pretty sure that Stoops could pull that off.
I'm sorry friend, but you couldn't be more wrong. This ain't a battle that Stoops would win within the halls of the academic side at UK.
 
I was with a number of UK professors yesterday and while I steered clear of this topic I was amazed to learn that several of them had never been to a UK football or basketball game including one who is very well regarded in his field and has been at UK over twenty years. Yep, they live in a different world from those of us on this board.
Meh, not the least bit suprised. Professors are no different than any other people...most of which don't have any interest in sport or very little interest. Half if not more than half of the students will never attend a game.

It isn't only at UK and I doubt that the ratio of those who attend vs those who do not/have never is close to the same at every school. I've got a couple of friends who are both profs at UNC and another who works at Alabama and they've never attended games. They are athletes in their own right (competitive cyclist) and just have other ways to spend their free time.
 
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Meh, not the least bit suprised. Professors are no different than any other people...most of which don't have any interest in sport or very little interest. Half if not more than half of the students will never attend a game.

But more than half of women who attend college will be raped, according to you
 
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Oh that attitude is no surprise, has been present at UK on the academic side for years now. Not only are many there not a fan of the University's sports, they view it as the enemy, as a drain on money and time and attention that should be going to the classrooms and labs and greenhouses and chalkboards. Basketball has its powerful allies that shields it, not so for football. It is why there is such hostility towards expansions or money spent on football facilities, it is why a yearly late summer tradition of 2 or 3 UK football players turning up academically ineligible.

Having said that,

I'm sorry friend, but you couldn't be more wrong. This ain't a battle that Stoops would win within the halls of the academic side at UK.

Agreed. Not in the current climate. Like you and I both predicted soon as the initial allegations were made - this kid will almost surely never again suit up for UK; short of her fully recanting which isn't happening.
 
Oh that attitude is no surprise, has been present at UK on the academic side for years now. Not only are many there not a fan of the University's sports, they view it as the enemy, as a drain on money and time and attention that should be going to the classrooms and labs and greenhouses and chalkboards. Basketball has its powerful allies that shields it, not so for football. It is why there is such hostility towards expansions or money spent on football facilities, it is why a yearly late summer tradition of 2 or 3 UK football players turning up academically ineligible.
.

Most ever school has 2 or 3 football players who become academically ineligible every year. What? 2% of the team? Probably 2+% of the general student body flunks out every year.
The guy that sits (sat) next to me at CWS, his daughter worked at CATS while getting her masters at UK. Paraphrasing her words through him...It's amazing that 20 or 30 don't flunk out every year. There are a lot of kids who get to college that are not near ready for college.
Yes, there is a rift between academics and athletics... the academic side has for years seen their budgets cut and salaries more or less frozen while athletics budgets have exploded along with coach's salaries. There is an old saying that you know where one's priorities lie by where they spend their money.
 
Most ever school has 2 or 3 football players who become academically ineligible every year.
Not the superpowers. Just doesnt seem to happen at Bama, or Ohio State, or LSU.

Hell I can't even think of any UL football player in the last decade who had trouble meeting qualifications to enroll, or who failed to meet grades while playing football for their 4 years of eligibility. Had a great time listening to Rich Brooks at a summer caravan tour stop (when UK did that kind of thing) express amazement at this phenomenon. They recruited some of the same kids, he knew the bad academic status of some of them. Yet kids who would not have qualified to play at UK enroll at UL no problem, and stayed academically eligible all 4 or 5 years. And then puzzlingly few ever actually leave with degrees, isn't that strange.
 
Transy, you show your limited ability to apply logic.

If there are 10 rapes does that mean that 10 different women were raped?

O, gotcha. That makes minimally more sense, except not really.

Using your logic* there are roughly 1.2 million rapes on campus each year. For the entire US, there 85,000 rapes reported in 2010. So your claim is that universities have 14 times as many rapes as the entire reported US (which already includes incidents reported by students). So, the 10 million female US university students are raped not only at a higher rate, but in greater sheer numbers than the other 150 million or so women in the US? That is what you are saying. And if you are saying that each woman is not being raped, but rather the same women are repeatedly abused (you are), then you have to reach the conclusion that a population potentially as high as 4 times that of the 85,000 number are being raped 4 times each year. So, every 3 months 425,000 women are raped on college campuses. That is what you are saying.

Of course, rapes obviously go unreported, but even the estimation of unreported rapes from RAINN goes to about 150,000. You are so far off base it is hilarious. Please show me, mathematically, how there can be AT MINIMUM 1.2 million college rapes each year without stretching the credulity of a simpleton.

*This is based on the lowest possible numbers you gave (number of college campuses X number of days a year on campus X 2 - this is where the number could go up quite a bit, as you said "multiple rapes" every day. That multiplier could be really high, but I gave you the benefit of the doubt and used 2)
 
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O, gotcha. That makes minimally more sense, except not really.

Using your logic* there are roughly 1.2 million rapes on campus each year. For the entire US, there 85,000 rapes reported in 2010. So your claim is that universities have 14 times as many rapes as the entire reported US (which already includes incidents reported by students). So, the 6 million female US university students are raped not only at a higher rate, but in greater sheer numbers than the other 150 million or so women in the US? That is what you are saying. And if you are saying that each woman is not being raped, but rather the same women are repeatedly abused (you are), then you have to reach the conclusion that a population potentially as high as 4 times that of the 85,000 number are being raped 4 times each year. So, every 3 months 425,000 women are raped on college campuses. That is what you are saying.

Of course, rapes obviously go unreported, but even the estimation of unreported rapes from RAINN goes to about 150,000. You are so far off base it is hilarious. Please show me, mathematically, how there can be AT MINIMUM 1.2 million college rapes each year without stretching the credulity of a simpleton.

*This is based on the lowest possible numbers you gave (number of college campuses X number of days a year on campus X 2 - this is where the number could go up quite a bit, as you said "multiple rapes" every day. That multiplier could be really high, but I gave you the benefit of the doubt and used 2)

If you recall what I actually wrote...I wrote that by definition there were rapes occuring on college campuses every day.
You do know the definition of rape...don't you?
Rape doesn't require some girl be snached and violently forced to have sex against her will. She may be drunk and passed out...kind of like the girl who was raped at Vanderbilt...the girl didn't know or remember anything happening but the stupid guys videoed it all and shared it with friends...or it could be a romantically involved couple where she is "just too tired" or "I'm on my period" and doesn't want sex but the 18-21 yr old guy does what 18-21 yr old guys do...insist until he gets his way.
If you don't think those things are happening on college campuses every day then you're way out of touch with what's happening on campus.
 
If you recall what I actually wrote...I wrote that by definition there were rapes occuring on college campuses every day.
You do know the definition of rape...don't you?
Rape doesn't require some girl be snached and violently forced to have sex against her will. She may be drunk and passed out...kind of like the girl who was raped at Vanderbilt...the girl didn't know or remember anything happening but the stupid guys videoed it all and shared it with friends...or it could be a romantically involved couple where she is "just too tired" or "I'm on my period" and doesn't want sex but the 18-21 yr old guy does what 18-21 yr old guys do...insist until he gets his way.
If you don't think those things are happening on college campuses every day then you're way out of touch with what's happening on campus.

No, rape is forcing someone to engage in a sexual act against their will (or engaging in it when the victim is unconscious and unable to give consent). Of course I understand that it most commonly occurs under the guise of a close friend/partner that doesn't stop when asked as opposed to a knife wielding lunatic holding a woman down in the bushes; the latter is astonishingly rare.

HOWEVER, your claim that begging or nagging someone into accepting a sexual advance is rape is as utterly ridiculous as your claim that 1.1 million college students are raped each year. You ask me if I know the definition of rape and then proceed to say that asking "pretty please" meets that definition. You are really showing yourself to be quite ignorant each time you respond. If you want to refute this, show me a definition of rape that includes something like "asking repeatedly, but with no threat or implication of violence." You won't be able to find one (from a legitimate legal source), so just admit how ridiculous your argument is
 
so why is this situation any different than the chuck hayes situation? chuck was still allowed to play basketball?
 
It wouldn't surprise me if he did rape her. It wouldn't surprise me if he didn't rape her.

It would surprise me if he ever plays for the Cats.
 
so why is this situation any different than the chuck hayes situation? chuck was still allowed to play basketball?
No he wasn't, his accusations occurred after his eligibility was complete. But if he could still play he likely would have. That was 10 years ago, campus sexual assault was not a national hot button issue.
 
No, rape is forcing someone to engage in a sexual act against their will (or engaging in it when the victim is unconscious and unable to give consent). Of course I understand that it most commonly occurs under the guise of a close friend/partner that doesn't stop when asked as opposed to a knife wielding lunatic holding a woman down in the bushes; the latter is astonishingly rare.

HOWEVER, your claim that begging or nagging someone into accepting a sexual advance is rape is as utterly ridiculous as your claim that 1.1 million college students are raped each year. You ask me if I know the definition of rape and then proceed to say that asking "pretty please" meets that definition. You are really showing yourself to be quite ignorant each time you respond. If you want to refute this, show me a definition of rape that includes something like "asking repeatedly, but with no threat or implication of violence." You won't be able to find one (from a legitimate legal source), so just admit how ridiculous your argument is
Dude, I never put any numbers on it...that was all you. I said it happens every day.
 
Dude, I never put any numbers on it...that was all you. I said it happens every day.

You absolutely put numbers on it. You said rapes (plural) happen "every day" on "every campus." Those statements have numeric values. There are specific number of days in an academic calendar, there are a specific number of US colleges, there are a specific number of female students attending said colleges. I just did the leg work of actually calculating that number for you.

You also have presumably realized your definition of rape exists nowhere but the columns of Gawker and xojane or else you would have pointed me towards a legal definition that includes pestering.
 
Will say in advance that this is an off the wall what if...but here goes....what if an innocent man negotiates some future payment for the recant from the alleged victim? Unsavory? Maybe. Unethical? Well, if he's innocent, it's more akin to giving in to extortion. Admittedly, I'm fairly peeved to see how this has played out and I'm not talking sense at all at this point.
 
Not the superpowers. Just doesnt seem to happen at Bama, or Ohio State, or LSU.

Hell I can't even think of any UL football player in the last decade who had trouble meeting qualifications to enroll, or who failed to meet grades while playing football for their 4 years of eligibility. Had a great time listening to Rich Brooks at a summer caravan tour stop (when UK did that kind of thing) express amazement at this phenomenon. They recruited some of the same kids, he knew the bad academic status of some of them. Yet kids who would not have qualified to play at UK enroll at UL no problem, and stayed academically eligible all 4 or 5 years. And then puzzlingly few ever actually leave with degrees, isn't that strange.

Nothing either puzzling or strange about that with jurich and the motley crew he has assembled in charge.
 
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I served on a Grand Jury in Lexington several years ago. One of the cases that came before us was a rape case involving two UK athletes. We also dealt with another case involving UK football players and a dorm fire. The one thing I can attest too is that Ray Larson and his team are top notch and if there was evidence for this to go to trial it would go forward.

I have no idea whether a rape actually occurred, but I doubt there is any clear cut physical evidence or additional witnesses. I also doubt UK has any additional information than what was available to the DA's office. So, it would appear that they are simply choosing to side with one student over another. I don't know if that is good or bad, but it is the most likely scenario to explain what happened. UK's scenario is different because they don't have the same burden of proof that would exist in a court room, but without compelling evidence to support one side or the other, I am surprised UK simply isn't staying neutral in this situation.
 
I served on a Grand Jury in Lexington several years ago. One of the cases that came before us was a rape case involving two UK athletes. We also dealt with another case involving UK football players and a dorm fire. The one thing I can attest too is that Ray Larson and his team are top notch and if there was evidence for this to go to trial it would go forward.

I have no idea whether a rape actually occurred, but I doubt there is any clear cut physical evidence or additional witnesses. I also doubt UK has any additional information than what was available to the DA's office. So, it would appear that they are simply choosing to side with one student over another. I don't know if that is good or bad, but it is the most likely scenario to explain what happened. UK's scenario is different because they don't have the same burden of proof that would exist in a court room, but without compelling evidence to support one side or the other, I am surprised UK simply isn't staying neutral in this situation.

Did Tubman testify? Most defendants do not because they have the right to remain silent, right. We've all seen 1 Adam 12. Did he testify in front of the UK decision makers? Did they have his story and hers, or did his attorneys, smartly, advise him to be quiet? If he didn't, surely everyone can see why he loses this staring contest. As far as the definition of rape, it technically happens all over town every night when a woman gives in under "duress," which is what happens all the time on campus. The funny thing is all the radio commercials right now make it sound like women want it all the time and all the men just need to go to clinic so they can give it to them. In the spirit of the Derby, let's quit beating this horse.
 
For those of you looking for the definition of rape, it includes sex by "forcible compulsion." I'm not a lawyer, but a few google searches defined it for me. I wish I would have looked this up sooner. Do you all not see the dichotomy here? He's a big guy. If being subject to "an environment of emotional, verbal and physical duress is sufficient" I can see why there is an issue. I can also see why a prosecutor or jury wouldn't like the case if that is all they got. But see why UK might be unwilling to let him back in.

Forcible compulsion includes not only physical force, but extends to both implicit and explicit threats. Specifically, forcible compulsion includes a “threat of physical force, express or implied, which places a person in fear of immediate death, physical injury to self or another person, fear of the immediate kidnap of self or another person, or fear of any offense under this chapter.” KRS 510.010. In interpreting the meaning of “forcible compulsion”, courts have explicitly stated that it does not require that the perpetrator used actual physical force against the victim: simply placing the victim in a continual state of fear and subject to an environment of emotional, verbal and physical duress is sufficient. See Yarnell v. Commonwealth, Ky., 833 S.W.2d 834 (1992) (appellant was properly convicted of first degree rape and sodomy of his step-children when the children testified that they were afraid of him, when appellant constantly yelled, screamed, and directed obscenity at them, and when children went along with the deviate sexual intercourse only because of their fear of appellant). In determining whether a victim submitted because of an implied threat which placed her in fear, the courts employ a subjective standard: whether the victim was truly afraid -- rather than an objective standard, i.e. whether the average victim would have been afraid. Salsman v. Commonwealth, Ky.App., 565 S.W.2d 638 (1978).
 
It's actually a complicated question. Technically you can sue anyone for slander for just about any reason you want. So yes he could legally bring a case against her. The issue is that in a slander suit she is the defendant and Tubman will have the burden to prove his innocence in the rape case. That's nearly impossible to do.So for a practical answer to the question then No is the answer. He can't go after her and she can continue to level charges publicly. She can write books about him being a rapist and even make public speeches about it and there's not much he can do about it.

Off the topic there are a few concepts that should be stated based on the thousands of threads regarding this case. First off Tubman has no case against her at this moment. So everyone that is stating that he should go after this girl needs to stop it. Even if he has a small chance of winning the damage to his public image will follow him for the rest of his life. Not to mention that he hasn't been acquitted of the so he can be charged again at any time. Filing a civil suit with him being the plaintive would change the rules of discovery and she might get access to evidence that she didn't have access to when Tubman was protected by the rules regarding a criminal case. He could literally open himself up to being convicted of the rape charge if he tries to go after her.

Second he has no case against UK so all the foolishness on this board that he should sue UK needs to stop. UK can expel him for just about any reason they want. Even a dress code violation, as if UK has one, would be enough to be defensible in court. It should also be pointed out that there isn't a student committee in the history of UK that has more sway with the university than does Mark Stoops. If Stoops were to walk into the office of Eli Capilouto and demand that Loyd be reinstated does any believe that Loyd wouldn't be? I am pretty sure that Stoops could pull that off. The fact that it hasn't happened implies to me that Stoops has chosen not to "pull strings" in this case. It looks to me that Stoops is letting this play out and see if Loyd earns his way back. The rest of us should do the same.

Thankyou TBCat for answering me swiftly and promptly. You are an attribute to the forums and I wish I could vote like x100 times. That beings said, it makes me said I am involved in a time where careless accusations can be made over and over. Makes me wish they just went to court and there was a victor and a loser. I might be wrong for wishing that, but I feel bad for the cloud Tubman and this lady will have lingering on them the rest of their existence. THank you once gain kind sir/ma'am.
 
I guess I'll start it. Where does the Chris Jones case in Louisville fit in to this discussion if at all?
 
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