Do you go to Church?
- Thread starter Catfan in Tn.
- Start date
NO. Religious faith is belief without evidence. Inductive reasoning is based on establishing premises using past observations of evidence. It is only tentatively held that the premises are true as long as new evidence does not falsify them. This is NOT faith no matter how much you want it to be.
Little things. Things that seem difficult to explain. That still small voice. Grace to make it through tough life events. Answered prayers for you and others around you. The growing realization of the complexity of life around you and there is something bigger than this earthly life. 33 years of that.
BTW, I don't earn my way to heaven. I'd be in trouble if that were the case.
I get what you are thinking. But Hume actually showed, logically is the same. I should've introduced it. It's like the guy arguing big bang is flawed, but didn't understand string theory. My fault. Logically, there is either inductive reasoning or deductive.
Lek, I'm no philosopher. You probably have more training in this area than me. But I think I have a basic understanding of the problem. My point is that even inductive reasoning is based on evidence, just not complete evidence. As we know, complete evidence is not possible.
You may call it faith to tentatively accept a theory, but in the religious sense of the word, it's totally different. I could be wrong, but I don't think Hume was using that definition.
You may call it faith to tentatively accept a theory, but in the religious sense of the word, it's totally different. I could be wrong, but I don't think Hume was using that definition.
I was referring to the "instrument in God's hand" part. I lost my first wife and it didn't make me feel like I was an instrument in God's hand.
You guys are missing my point. I am a Christian but I'm not here to argue about religion.
No doubt there is a huge difference between religious faith and other kinds of faith. That's what makes faith in God so unique and special (no matter what denomination or religion). I'm not arguing against that point. But there are some similarities. Any kind of faith requires belief in something...a trust or confidence in something that you are not 100% sure about. It's the very definition of faith...even the non-religious kind.
Ida keeps saying that he doesn't ever use faith to make decisions. That is the point I disagree with. He has said that in these threads before. I don't think he is being completely honest with himself when he says that. Sure, it isn't the only factor involved in your decision making process but it is a factor in some cases...a lot of cases. He touched on it in his last post but he still refuses to refer to it as "faith". Says faith is in no way a part of his life. Call it "tentative trust" or "temporary trust" if you want...but by definition it is faith. Just seems agenda driven to consistently (in every religious thread) refuse to use the word...when discussing non-religious life decisions.
And yes, I understand that when that type of faith lets you down you change your beliefs, actions, etc...But after you do all of that...you will still be using faith, to some degree, the next time you make similar decisions...just re-channeling that faith.
It doesn't make you weak or any less intelligent to partially rely on these non-religious types of faith in decision making processes. It makes you human.
No doubt there is a huge difference between religious faith and other kinds of faith. That's what makes faith in God so unique and special (no matter what denomination or religion). I'm not arguing against that point. But there are some similarities. Any kind of faith requires belief in something...a trust or confidence in something that you are not 100% sure about. It's the very definition of faith...even the non-religious kind.
Ida keeps saying that he doesn't ever use faith to make decisions. That is the point I disagree with. He has said that in these threads before. I don't think he is being completely honest with himself when he says that. Sure, it isn't the only factor involved in your decision making process but it is a factor in some cases...a lot of cases. He touched on it in his last post but he still refuses to refer to it as "faith". Says faith is in no way a part of his life. Call it "tentative trust" or "temporary trust" if you want...but by definition it is faith. Just seems agenda driven to consistently (in every religious thread) refuse to use the word...when discussing non-religious life decisions.
And yes, I understand that when that type of faith lets you down you change your beliefs, actions, etc...But after you do all of that...you will still be using faith, to some degree, the next time you make similar decisions...just re-channeling that faith.
It doesn't make you weak or any less intelligent to partially rely on these non-religious types of faith in decision making processes. It makes you human.
Answered prayers for yourself and others around you? Could you talk with your friends and pray for the folks in Sudan and other less fortunate countries? They seem to really need some answered prayers.
Those people are more Christian that I could ever think about being. Especially the ones who are dying for their faith.
Do I ever believe something without evidence (religious faith), No. Absolutely not. Tell me something you think I believe using the definition of religious faith..........
Do I ever make decisions using religious faith, IOW, something where I have little to no evidence to support my decision? Only when I'm forced to, but I know when I'm doing it and I don't expect a certain outcome like a religious believer does. I know that on average, the expected outcome is directly proportional to the availability of accurate information (evidence).
Yes, religious faith is "special". Not only can you make decisions based on little to no supporting evidence and feel confident in the outcome, you can make decisions when there's evidence AGAINST the thing your deciding on and apparently still maintain complete confidence in your decision.
YOU HAVE TO. That's the thing about this warped system. It's all dependent on how strongly you believe. You'd better believe or you might go to hell. Believe. Belieeeeeve. Are you convinced yet? ... No? You're screwed dude. Well, you might make the 3rd level of heaven if you're a Mormon, but forget getting a harem of celestial wives to create spirit babies to populate your own planet.
Do I ever make decisions using religious faith, IOW, something where I have little to no evidence to support my decision? Only when I'm forced to, but I know when I'm doing it and I don't expect a certain outcome like a religious believer does. I know that on average, the expected outcome is directly proportional to the availability of accurate information (evidence).
Yes, religious faith is "special". Not only can you make decisions based on little to no supporting evidence and feel confident in the outcome, you can make decisions when there's evidence AGAINST the thing your deciding on and apparently still maintain complete confidence in your decision.
YOU HAVE TO. That's the thing about this warped system. It's all dependent on how strongly you believe. You'd better believe or you might go to hell. Believe. Belieeeeeve. Are you convinced yet? ... No? You're screwed dude. Well, you might make the 3rd level of heaven if you're a Mormon, but forget getting a harem of celestial wives to create spirit babies to populate your own planet.
Yeah. Practical. That's about all can we shoot for.
1000 years from now, if gravity causes apples to fly into space instead of fall to the ground, science will add that observation and revise all related theories into new working models.
Ida, we all knew that you don't believe anything religious-faith based before this thread ever started. In this thread I have been concentrating on non-religious faith. I'm assuming you meant "non-religious" faith in your 2nd paragraph above. If so, that's the first time you have ever actually admitted that. In fact, you are now completely contradicting what you typed earlier in this thread...
...unless I am supposed to make another assumption that this time you were referring to religious-based faith. But that's not how it came across...because both of my earlier posts were merely concentrating on non-religious faith.
And I'm not trying to play a game of "got ya" here...not at all. I'm not trying to flip this around on you in any way, shape or form. I am merely trying to point out that you, me and every other human being makes some decisions at least partially influenced by non-religious faith. You have never admitted to that in any of these threads until now. At least you never would use the word "faith". Not a "got ya" moment...just trying to get my point across.
Enjoy the rest of the thread.
Welder,
The best way for me to understand it is this: God is holy, totally devoid of sin or any type of evil. Anything sinful, flawed, spoiled or tarnished in any way cannot be in His presence. The only thing to do with such is destroy it; burn it the way we'd burn trash. But....because He wants us to be with Him, He made a way for us to be made pure and holy...Jesus took what was due those of us who had sinned. All we have to do is believe God sent Him for that purpose and personally accept what He did. Essentially, Christians believe God came to earth and took our punishment so we could be in Heaven with Him for eternity.
You ask a great question about the child molester and the good guy/non-Christian. It's not the good stuff we do or can do to get us to heaven. It's our imperfections/sins that keep us out. Just one sin renders us unholy and has to be accounted for. A lie, gossipping, lusting, killing someone, etc... each is sufficient to keep us out of Heaven if not forgiven. We are all imperfect...none of us is any better than the other. That is good news for me.
The best way for me to understand it is this: God is holy, totally devoid of sin or any type of evil. Anything sinful, flawed, spoiled or tarnished in any way cannot be in His presence. The only thing to do with such is destroy it; burn it the way we'd burn trash. But....because He wants us to be with Him, He made a way for us to be made pure and holy...Jesus took what was due those of us who had sinned. All we have to do is believe God sent Him for that purpose and personally accept what He did. Essentially, Christians believe God came to earth and took our punishment so we could be in Heaven with Him for eternity.
You ask a great question about the child molester and the good guy/non-Christian. It's not the good stuff we do or can do to get us to heaven. It's our imperfections/sins that keep us out. Just one sin renders us unholy and has to be accounted for. A lie, gossipping, lusting, killing someone, etc... each is sufficient to keep us out of Heaven if not forgiven. We are all imperfect...none of us is any better than the other. That is good news for me.
I took your first post on the subject as an attempt to show that everybody uses faith. That is what you were doing, is it not? It's been attempted several times in this thread.
I've tried to show that the mental thought processes I use are not the same thing. I guess you now agree.
No, I don't have or use religious faith. I don't even like to use the word, because theists usually don't know the difference and I have to spend 2 hours explaining it every time.
I don't think that a reasoned approach to making decisions, based on evidence, with an expected outcome that is expressed as a probability, ... is any kind of faith. Your choice to call it what you like. I'm not into word games. Just want to explain my individual thought process and how it is not at all like the faith believers use.
Hopefully we can now move on because I'm a little tired of trying to explain it and we're probably putting the entire Paddock to sleep.
I've tried to show that the mental thought processes I use are not the same thing. I guess you now agree.
No, I don't have or use religious faith. I don't even like to use the word, because theists usually don't know the difference and I have to spend 2 hours explaining it every time.
I don't think that a reasoned approach to making decisions, based on evidence, with an expected outcome that is expressed as a probability, ... is any kind of faith. Your choice to call it what you like. I'm not into word games. Just want to explain my individual thought process and how it is not at all like the faith believers use.
Hopefully we can now move on because I'm a little tired of trying to explain it and we're probably putting the entire Paddock to sleep.
If a child is getting molested by her father every night and the mother knows about it and has the power to stop it but chooses not to stop it, would you consider her a good mother or even a good person?
Hahaha. I agree, Ida. I almost fell asleep a couple of times my self.
But I doubt there are any serious theists that don't understand the difference between religious faith and non-religious faith. True believers will be the first to tell you that faith in God is not like any other kind of non-religious faith.
Always a pleasure, Ida.
But I doubt there are any serious theists that don't understand the difference between religious faith and non-religious faith. True believers will be the first to tell you that faith in God is not like any other kind of non-religious faith.
Always a pleasure, Ida.
Thanks for the civil reply Ram, but most of what you typed I already know. (Remember, I was raised in a Christian home, and have attended hundreds upon hundreds of sermons) My issue is not with the person who lived a good life, (we all made mistakes, sin if you wish to call them that); no, my issue is with the child molester I spoke of; how can it be possible for that filth to proclaim his faith, at the last minute no less, after a lifetime of evil?
I'd also welcome any input you, or any other person of faith would care to give, to the question posed concerning the fact there exists in antiquity no less that four stories of a "virgin" birth, long before Christ was born.
Also, how can we be assured another Lucifer will not arise, align "legions" of other angels with him, and cause another great war in heaven? If heaven is this perfect place, free from all sin, I fail to understand how the "great war" began to start with. I know the story, Lucifer was basically full of himself, and angels aren't on par with humans, yet that still never answers the REAL question: how, if heaven is sin free did he have the ABILITY to feel as he did to begin with?
The following isn't a question, rather an observation: I look at the cosmos, the incredible vastness of known space, so vast our minds can't REALLY comprehend it, and I KNOW, somewhere out there exists other sentient life. Honestly, the probability of sentient life existing somewhere other than our own inconsequential little planet is highly likely, so the claim we are somehow "special" doesn't hold water with me.
5 years ago, I was on the paddock arguing against God. Partly devils advocate, partly questioning my own beliefs. We're humans, our beliefs should always be questioned. Or at least start that way.
Thomas Merton and CS Lewis were both atheist at one time.
Thomas Merton and CS Lewis were both atheist at one time.
I've heard a few people call themselves a former Atheist, but they don't seem to know a hell of a lot about the Atheist arguments when I hear how they try to counter them after converting.
Example: I know CS Lewis was very intelligent, but I find his apologetic arguments to be naive and unconvincing for a guy who was supposedly once an Atheist. Makes me wonder if he put as much thought into the subject when he was an Atheist as he did after he moved to the dark side (haha). I've read that he also entertained the occult during his Atheist years, which is absurd. No Atheist seriously considers that shit any more than a devout Christian.
Just curious. Does anybody know if Lewis wrote about Christianity or religion when he was pro-Atheist and if so could somebody point me to those writings?
Last edited:
Lewis was neck deep in Christianity his entire life and only discarded it in the fleeting moments it was not convenient (ie.,.. when his pecker needed attending to). He quickly returned to the fold when it suited his career interests and needed an audience for his insufferable books. I think he was a conniving insincere bastard myself.
I would say God has no trouble telling the difference from a person with a truly repentant heart, and someone just looking for last minute fire insurance.
Matthew 7:21
DaBoss,
Obviously the answer is "no". I don't know why God continues to allow this stuff. Why does He allow us to kill, lie,abuse, cheat, manipulate other people for our own selfish desires? Why does He allow divorces and families to break up? Why the wars over stuff less important than one human life? My only explanation is that it's all a result of our free will and choosing our ways over His ways. Sorta making ourselves gods. I don't believe things are the way they were intended to be. One day that will be corrected.
I have a list of things I want to ask Him when I'm in Heaven. Why He waited will be one of them.
I just believe. I can't bring any arguements you've not already heard and maybe discounted. I can't quantify it. I also believe in the devil. He's good at what he does; leading someone to abuse a child causing him to question God's existance.
Obviously the answer is "no". I don't know why God continues to allow this stuff. Why does He allow us to kill, lie,abuse, cheat, manipulate other people for our own selfish desires? Why does He allow divorces and families to break up? Why the wars over stuff less important than one human life? My only explanation is that it's all a result of our free will and choosing our ways over His ways. Sorta making ourselves gods. I don't believe things are the way they were intended to be. One day that will be corrected.
I have a list of things I want to ask Him when I'm in Heaven. Why He waited will be one of them.
I just believe. I can't bring any arguements you've not already heard and maybe discounted. I can't quantify it. I also believe in the devil. He's good at what he does; leading someone to abuse a child causing him to question God's existance.
WW- you bring a good point that I have always wondered. God can create the devil, but can't make it disappear? God loves mankind so much that he creates an angel that will go rogue (remember god's plan?). God must have knew that satan would go rogue (how could he not know?). Just like the questions of Epicurus, why would God make an angel, knowing it would go rogue, only to allow satan to hurt the humans that he loves? Makes no sense. Zilch.
I'm not going to pretend to know everything or deny that I have questions as well but in regards to this, I heard it explained in this way.
Liken this to a parent and a child. As a parent you want your kid to love you; not force them to love you because that isn't love so he gives us free will to make our own choices. I suppose the devil is an adversary for our souls and a necessary opponent with free will involved.
If you're Christian, you believe that Heaven is paradise where the enemy can not harm you nor is there a battle anymoreand this world is not meant to be Heaven.
I don't know if that helps or what but just something pretty neat that I heard. But having just now read WW's post (only read yours originally), he brings up a good question.
I've asked the same question in regards to why has he waited considering how evil this world has become and how upside down everything is and one person said that "Maybe he's trying to give some souls some more time to turn their lives around?"
Kind of an interesting point. I have seen some people do a complete 180 with their lives who were pretty horrible before giving their life to God.
My own struggles of understanding is Old Testament vs New Testament and when it applies because that has been debated so much.
In one of my classes, the professor asked us (as a final) to come up with the overall theme of the Bible...from Genesis through Revelation. We came up with a lot of "theological" sounding stuff then he shared his thoughts with us. He said he saw the overall theme as something like this: " It's the story of God's love for His creation, it's fallen nature, the steps He takes to redeem the creation and His finally restoring it to its original state" For me, the OT is more of a story of how God wanted to have a model people for the rest of the world and how they failed to live up to His standard of goodness. The NT is the story of how He came in the form of Jesus to show us how it's supposed to be done. I believe Jesus Christ is a reflection of how God is. Unfortunately, those of us who bear His name (Christian) often do so in vain. We ( I) don't do a good job of representing Him to the world.
There's lots of stuff in the OT that gives skeptics cause to question God's nature. I don't believe He took joy in telling Israel to destroy certain tribes and have to believe He gave even those people an opportunity to enter His fold.
I don't have all the answers. I choose to believe....even that is a matter of undeserved grace on His part. I won't criticize non believers for doubting. If I'd had their experiences and lived their lives, I might think as they do.
The issue most have with "God" or the belief in him is there is no absolute that is always the case.
Example: There is evidence in his work based on the teachings of the bible which in my point is work hard, worship and blessings will come. Maybe not everything we ask but you will be blessed. People complain because that doesn't always make them rich as others etc so they also envy and become jealous which is something the bible teaches against. Then they complain and become negative thinking which is exactly not what he wants from us.
That isn't always how it works though so people aren't strong enough to comprehend because some receive what seems to be more blessing(in the form of finances) even though it seems they don't deserve it.
The bottom line is we are all different and motivated by different things or blessings. In life the bible applies and if you pay attention it will prove itself in time. If you choose to doubt for whatever reason then so be it, and that doesn't mean that blessings will not come to you because whether you realize it or not a lot of times your still doing gods work just not exactly as he planned.
It's really complicated.
Example: There is evidence in his work based on the teachings of the bible which in my point is work hard, worship and blessings will come. Maybe not everything we ask but you will be blessed. People complain because that doesn't always make them rich as others etc so they also envy and become jealous which is something the bible teaches against. Then they complain and become negative thinking which is exactly not what he wants from us.
That isn't always how it works though so people aren't strong enough to comprehend because some receive what seems to be more blessing(in the form of finances) even though it seems they don't deserve it.
The bottom line is we are all different and motivated by different things or blessings. In life the bible applies and if you pay attention it will prove itself in time. If you choose to doubt for whatever reason then so be it, and that doesn't mean that blessings will not come to you because whether you realize it or not a lot of times your still doing gods work just not exactly as he planned.
It's really complicated.
I don't see man's corruption as a reflection of God but just of the modern church. This type of crap is what bothers me that people allow to happen. You let these crooks in the mega churches and the prosperity gospel to poison your mind, sell you the same sermon right back to you in their self help book, and rob you.
I mean, look at this crap. This is Joel Osteen's house
Well he is a fraud so.. What do you expect
God in Old Testament commands the town elders to stone to death any bride who proves not to be a virgin. This is the kind of barbarism we decry when perpetrated by the Taliban, ISIL, etc. Why couldn't OT God be any better than this? In what way is that "Holy" or perfect?
It is my understanding satan can give people riches; his purpose being to lead them away from God. I joke with friends at church about winning $100M in the lottery (though I don't play it). To be honest, though I'd like to have it, I do believe if God believed it to be in my best interests, He'd plop down a cool hundred mill in my lap. When I look at it that way, I'm glad He doesn't. We are all subject to envy, jealousy, etc... Wealth is not the only way God blesses. I'm blessed with kids, friends, a great wife and the things I need. One of these days, I believe I'll also be aware of how God blessed me by NOT giving me certain things as well as protecting me from things I 'm currently not aware of.
Latest posts
-
-
-
Can everyone please send a prayer up for me real quick…….- Latest: OHIO COLONEL
-
-