bill self V. Tubby smith
- Thread starter Wall2Boogie
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I'd love to see a photoshop of tubby with a fishin pole and has Self's tupea hooked like he was pulling on a fish putting up a good fight
Lol
Lol
No but I can find you pics of Bill whipping tubby's ass on the court at Kentucky and Texas tech.
WildcatfaninOhio
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Twice you stated that this is not a bashing post. Yet the text you wrote seems to be bashing. You only pointed out negative attributes of both coaches.
Surprising you didn't include Coach Cal. He meets your criteria, doesn't he?
Tubby is/was a better x's and o's coach. Self can't touch that with a ten foot pole. OTS could find a way to win (at least in his first 5 or 6 seasons) when we had no business winning the game
Self is, however, a light-years better recruiter than OTS was, which is why Self will always likely be perceived as a better coach despite his NUMEROUS early-tournament flameouts.
Self is, however, a light-years better recruiter than OTS was, which is why Self will always likely be perceived as a better coach despite his NUMEROUS early-tournament flameouts.
Agreed....just like with Cal.....recruiting is part of coaching. Who cares if you are the best tacticianer in the world but you are trying to win with scrubs. I will take my chance with talent. I liked Tubby but Self>Smith and it is not even close.
I think you rank them based on every stop they coach. If you said Self vs. Tubby at the end of UK, then you've got an argument. But based on Tubby's past 2 stops, Self blows this away.
Tubby simply no longer has the fire and he's proven it.
Tubby simply no longer has the fire and he's proven it.
Very well said Tubby is gone and who cares about Self let it go Cal is UK that's that.
Bill Self >>> Tubby Smith. Tubby was all right, and with the right players was a pretty solid coach. I would imagine many probably undersell his accomplishments. But recruiting is a big part of coaching at the college level, and Tubby's recruiting simply wasn't up to snuff. Bill Self flames out in the tournament, but consistent regular season success means something (although lol at Kansas fans thinking it's worth more than the tournament). Starting in 2005-06 (when his first recruits were upperclassmen, his third year), his NCAA record is: 1st round, Elite 8, Champs, Sweet 16, 2nd Round, Elite 8, Title Game, Sweet 16, 2nd Round, 2nd Round. Not great, but he has 2 title game appearances with his own guys.
And let's not forget that Tubby's recruiting would have become a bigger problem in the one and done era. Sometimes those guys can have a negative effect on the team, but overall since that NBA CBA change went into effect, the overall talent level in the NCAA has increased, especially at the top. I think this is especially evident with bigs. The NCAA has a shortage of NBA sized athletes, and time and again we see guys struggle in the few matchups they have against quality size. Think Thomas Robinson against UK - it was a preview to his NBA career. Sheray Thomas is a nice young man, I suppose, but his struggles on the court get worse as the talent level increases.
I don't like him but Self is one of three coaches to take three different schools to an Elite Eight. The other two? Calipari and Pitino. That's pretty good company.
I keep reading that Tubby is a great X's and O's coach, but I didn't see it. We were not good in late game situations many many times when he was coach here. Understand, I'm not saying he was a bad technician, but I don't think he was some sort of whiz when it came to in game coaching either.
Tubby has always been a solid coach that really never recruited very well. I think that's been proven by his accomplishments after his first year at UK. And that's a 16 year run.
Tubby has always been a solid coach that really never recruited very well. I think that's been proven by his accomplishments after his first year at UK. And that's a 16 year run.
Self can & does coach circles around Tubby. One has been consistently successful at one of the historic programs in CBB history while the other almost ran his program into the ground & continue to move down the career ladder.
No comparison
And the idea of Tubby as a great x's & o's coaches is completely laughable.
Well, as I recall the discussion, Tubby was trying to destroy Kentucky Basketball thus starting a chain reaction that could bring about the next apocalypse.
Self has the goal of destroying Kentucky in each game thus starting a chain reaction that could bring about the next apocalypse.
Sounds like they are the same to me.
(I really liked the Mummy sequel as sequels go, though the basic theme of the movie was about as ridiculous as this thread)
Self has the goal of destroying Kentucky in each game thus starting a chain reaction that could bring about the next apocalypse.
Sounds like they are the same to me.
(I really liked the Mummy sequel as sequels go, though the basic theme of the movie was about as ridiculous as this thread)
After his first year , 1998 , tubby didn't beat a team seeded higher than a 6 seed in the NCAA . Don't see how you can say he beat teams he had no business beating.
I would think Tubby's career trajectory since UK would tell the story. I remember the 02-03 team looking unbeatable, but I also remember Rajon Rondo being utilized terribly. Tubby's last 2 years (of 10) were worse than any of Self's Kansas seasons (of 12).
Coming off 2 straight 2nd round losses, it's a popular time to rip on Self's tournament record, but it's also important to note that he lost a key big man from both teams right before the tournament. Would Alexander have made much of a difference against Wichita State? I don't know. But Embiid would've made a huge difference against Stanford. At the same time, how differently would Cal's results have looked if Wichita State beats you guys last year in the 2nd round? Last year would've been an unmitigated disaster.
I'll be interested to have this conversation a year from now when Self has had a little experience and depth to work with and Calipari has had to put together a whole new team that doesn't go 10 deep. All that being said, Cal and Self are both top 5 coaches in the game today.
Also, check K's NCAA record since 2004 prior to this year. Coming off a championship completely changes the perspective, but does it mean they're a better coach than they were the year before?
Coming off 2 straight 2nd round losses, it's a popular time to rip on Self's tournament record, but it's also important to note that he lost a key big man from both teams right before the tournament. Would Alexander have made much of a difference against Wichita State? I don't know. But Embiid would've made a huge difference against Stanford. At the same time, how differently would Cal's results have looked if Wichita State beats you guys last year in the 2nd round? Last year would've been an unmitigated disaster.
I'll be interested to have this conversation a year from now when Self has had a little experience and depth to work with and Calipari has had to put together a whole new team that doesn't go 10 deep. All that being said, Cal and Self are both top 5 coaches in the game today.
Also, check K's NCAA record since 2004 prior to this year. Coming off a championship completely changes the perspective, but does it mean they're a better coach than they were the year before?
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I 100% agree with your last statement. It's like an Urban Myth. I'd love for someone to actually provide some proof.
Disagree. Tubbys most talented teams always ended in team turmoil. He had NO idea how to coach Mcdonlds AA .
Wow...there must be another Tubby besides Tubby Smith.
He wouldn't have won 3-4 more titles if he had the Showtime Lakers in UK uniforms.
I predict UK will go further than KU again...like most years. Cal has had a new team that did not go 10 deep in 2011 and 2014...and did pretty well those years. The only year it failed was when his best player got hurt, and I do agree Embiid being out cost KU an Elite 8 appearance in 2014.
Uh - if you go success relative to amount of time they've spent at blue bloods, neither Self nor Tubby can sniff Cal's tailpipe. Not even close.
Exhibit A of Cal worship gone crazy.
Definitely throw out Tubby but to act like Self's accomplishments at KU aren't even in Cal's ballpark is just plain ignorance.
No it doesn't mean they're a better coach than the prior year. (though I think he was very much a distracted coach the prior year following his brother's death) however most fans are going to be generally forgiving of any bad tourney defeats with 2 National Championships won in that time frame.
It's an example of an interesting phenomenon: reputations die hard. A perception of a coach is crystlized, and people just hang on to it and won't change, no matter the evidence.
An even more interesting example is Cal: the perception (early, when he didn't have much talent but still did very well) was that he was a great X and O guy and motivator. At some point, he started getting a lot of talent - and the image changed. Now it's common to hear "He's not a great X and O guy" even among UK fans. It's the only example I can think of where there was a conventional perception, and it changed (and swung in fact to the complete other end of the spectrum)......But now that perception has crystalized, and show no sign of vulerability.....
I was really talking about his entire body of work, and not just the NCAA's. I'll give you that he didn't coach us to a win over a team seeded higher than 6 in the NCAA's, but he coached us to a victory over #2 Maryland in 1998-1999, Beat #4 Auburn in the 1999 SEC tournament, #5 Michigan State in 1999-2000 (eventual national champs), #6 Tennessee in 1999-2000, #4 Tennessee in 2000-2001 (we were unranked), just to name a few.
I can't remember that one, did you play them earlier in the season? that was a really good Spartan team.
Per year, they aren't. Go look at Cal vs Bill's results over the last 6 years when they've been the #1 and 2 recruiter of the land. They're not in the same universe. Or, if you like, take their averages over the amount of time they've spent at blueblood schools. Again, Self is great, but you can't argue one way or another on that one in terms of who has had more on-court success.
I understand how you have to constantly distract from your own inanity by claiming that all of us who disagree with you are "worshipping".
But the reality is that I just acknowledge that he's the second best coach in the game right now. In other words, it's like praising Kevin Durant. It's not hard to do.
What is hard to do is to constantly find ways to explain how he's actually not that great. Whether you're doing that for KD or for Cal, it makes you look forced and awkward and puts you up against all kinds of logical walls when you hold them to different standards than you do other, inferior players/coaches.
I have no idea what KD has to do with this, and I can't quote Self's numbers verbatim. But I do know that the assertion that his tenure at KU is nowhere in the same ballpark as Cal's here or "can't sniff Cal's tailpipe, not even close..." is ridiculous.
I certainly agree that Cal is better, but it's not some kind of walkover. Selfs numbers at KU are pretty dang good as well.
I certainly agree that Cal is better, but it's not some kind of walkover. Selfs numbers at KU are pretty dang good as well.
Tubby was very good early and average (I'm being nice here) late. He inherited a juggernaut. He did an outstanding job his first year no doubt. Once he had to rely on his own recruits he slowly slid downhill. In 2005-06 the 26 point loss to IU and the 27 point loss to Kansas were one of the lowest points for me outside of probation. I've spent a little time with him and he is without question a great and sincere guy but he couldn't sustain his early success. Recruiting is part of coaching and this is where Self and Cal both blow him out the water.
The point I'm making re: KD is incredibly straightforward. I dunno why you get such a kick out of playing obtuse, but it wastes everybody's time. If the person in question is the second best at anything, then constant slighting is much more forced than constant praise.
And you got on me for a perfectly reasonable interpretation of an early post in another thread, and now you're trying to hammer me for a quote you pulled with an unambiguous and explicit omission on your part. I'm not going to take up for the straw man that you've erected. If I were talking about accomplishments over their respective tenures, that's how I would have phrased it. Gary Williams had better accomplishments over his tenure at Maryland than Brad Stevens did at Butler, but that doesn't mean anything because, among other things, their tenures were not comparably long. It's apples and zucchinis. Year for year, it's different.
Guess some on you forget tubby losing 46-73 to self, and then another 12 point beat down the following year in the tourney(which would be tubbys last game at UK).
This thread is comical.
This thread is comical.
Agree.. If you could inherit Tubbys Xs n Os into coach Cal.. He really would be dominant.. Cal isn't the best Xs n Os coach out there.. Tubby ended up the laziest recruiter alive his latter years..
I see you people keep saying this, but I haven't seen any examples. A great X's and O's coach will consistently beat teams that have superior talent, and he simply didn't do that after his first year or two at UK. Regular season he stole some occasionally but in the tournament I don't remember us registering a lot of upsets.
Tubby's style forced athletic teams to play grind it out basketball, slow down the game and make it ugly. That's not great X's and O's. The only team that I remember that flat out executed people were the Estill/Daniels teams but they still didn't beat great teams.
I allow for the fact that I could be misjudging his acumen, but I'd need proof or examples to really believe that.
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